If I recall from the book (it has been a long time since I've read it), Force Lightning killed the Orbalisks I thought? Revan could fire a Force Lightning, or redirect Bane's Lightning back at the parasites.
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They have a point. Bane's lightning was essentially like firing a nuclear reactor at the time. The orbalisks absorbed 1 million volts. To take them out as quickly as he did, it was probably in the tens of millions. This may be due to the confined space, however.
Bro, comparison of feats is rather a subjective approach of solving a problem such as this one. Not all characters have been explored equally in depth in written literature; quality of exploration may also differ from novel to novel or medium to medium.
Darth Bane's story spans 3 novels. In comparison, Revan has been featured in just one novel. I do not know if the author who wrote these novels was pressured by the higher authorities in Star Wars to explore Revan at minimum possible level or the author deliberately left some questions about Revan unanswered. Unfortunately for this debate, Darth Bane is much better defined and explored then Revan in novels. However, it is still possible to put things in context in this debate and I am finally in the position to do so after revisiting all novels featuring Darth Bane and Revan. Continue to read below.
Important thing here is to understand that how Darth Bane survived against an opponent who was relatively superior duelist.
1. Darth Bane fought Kas'im in a setting where he had advantage; the former individual had decent knowledge of the Temple's layout.
2. Darth Bane's command of the dark side had also relatively improved by this point:
In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
When the duel began, this improved understanding of the dark side proved to be vital for Darth Bane:
Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.
Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.
Great understanding of the dark side made all the difference in this fight; the superiority of the opponent in martial aspects of combat was nullified in this manner.
This observation makes sense even for Darth Sidious. Martial skills wise, Darth Sidious did not matched the greats of the Jedi Order such as Mace Windu and Yoda. Luke Skywalker also bested Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel. However, the Sith Lord's great understanding of the dark side allowed him to contend with any kind of adversary.
Understanding of the Force has always been an important factor in combat; aspects such as speed and precognition are also tied with this understanding. Instead of focusing on the sentences, we (as debaters) should rather focus on mechanics of the Force for guidance. This can make our task much easier at solving ambiguities involved in versus threads.
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As a side example; the assumption that Darth Sidious would manage to blitz an opponent of the caliber of Darth Bane and/or Revan is absurd. Words such as 'blur' prove nothing; they are used to impress the audience/readers. Understanding of the Force is what actually matters (an underlying principle in Star Wars) and makes difference. The 3 Jedi Masters whom Darth Sidious slaughtered so quickly couldn't do jack against the Sith Lord because their actual understanding of the Force was relatively much much weaker. Martial skills couldn't save them and bridge this enormous gap. In contrast, Mace's talents not just afforded him survival but also advantage; his understanding of the Force was relatively much better then those of the other 3 Jedi Masters. These same Jedi Masters (excluding Mace) who fell so easily against an opponent whose understanding of the Force had been miles ahead of theirs, hold no candle to the likes of Darth Bane and Revan in understanding of the Force either.
Not convinced yet?
Ever wondered that how young Darth Vader overcame Sin Drallig (blademaster of the Jedi Order in his time) in a duel? Through his superior command of the Force (logically). In contrast, ever wondered that why Shaak Ti managed to prevent same Darth Vader from overcoming her in the same raid? Because her command of the Force was relatively superior to that of Cin Drallig's (logically).
Makes sense now, right?
The sole reason behind Revan outgunning an Imperial Guard individual so quickly in a duel is his immense command of the Force. Keep in mind that Imperial Guard individuals are trained to fight all kinds of duelists. Their preferred choice of weapon is lightwhip. If stationed near Sith Emperor, these individuals can even make themselves (or become) virtually immune to Jedi powers. Interestingly when Luke Skywalker faced an opponent wielding a lightwhip in combat for the first time, he lost. Afterwards, Luke further refined his martial skills and used two blades to defeat the same opponent in the second encounter.
In the nutshell, command of the Force influences performance in both martial and non-martial aspects of combat.
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Now that it has been established that how Darth Bane dealt with martial prowess of Lord Kas'im; we also need to focus on the exchange of Force powers:
Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.
Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.
As you can note here, Darth Bane failed to neutralize Lord Kas'im with the power he could unleash with a simple gesture. More surprisingly, Darth Bane couldn't defend himself against similar assault from Lord Kas'im.
Yes, Darth Bane found the opportunity to fully unlock his raw potential in the Force after he disconnected from the heat of the combat. He gathered his power and unleashed it towards Lord Kas'im's position. The power released was potent enough to collapse the ancient Temple or part of it. But it still was not potent enough to overcome the defensive abilities of a trained Force-wielder.
One underlying message here is that their is difference between what can be achieved with simple gestures during the heat of combat and what can be achieved after sufficient time is found to gather considerable power.
Another underlying message here is that the defensive abilities of a trained Force-wielder should not be underestimated. It is sheer folly to attempt to determine the chances of a trained Force-wielder against another solely on the basis of TK (based) feats and this is my intended message since the beginning of this thread. Feats are important to consider but under appropriate context.
Not convinced yet?
In a fight between an unknown Zabrak Jedi and Darth Malgus in Aldeeran, the former used the Force to collapse two buildings around the position of the Sith Lord in an attempt to crush him. Just like in the case of Lord Kas'im, Darth Malgus found himself trapped within a mountain of rubble. However, it shall be noted that only a certain part of the rubble could fall over a single individual and not the whole of it in both cases. And not surprisingly, the major distinguishing point between Darth Maglus and Lord Kas'im is in the command of the Force and/or dark side. This difference was also the deciding factor in the difference between the outcomes in these two separate events under similar situations.
No. Bane had finished his trails in the Academy by this time. He had actually learned much more then other students in the academy prior to his departure to Lehon.
"The dark side draws on the most powerful emotions: anger,
hatred, fear. We are taught to use our emotions to unlock our true potential and unleash the Force against our enemies."[I] (Darth Nyriss to Lord Scourge)
Darth Bane finally understood the wisdom behind this lesson after consulting the holocron of Revan. This is how he managed to unlock his true potential and since then stood apart from the other Sith who were members of the Brotherhood of Kaan. Visit to Lehon had fully transformed Darth Bane in to a true Sith Lord.
Yes and No.
Yes; the power seems to fit the description and nature of Force Wave.
No; Lord Kas'im was standing beneath the entrance of the Temple and the power logically hit him with the same Force as it hit the structure. The power actually hit Lord Kas'im with such a force that it would have utterly destroyed him, if he had not defended himself with the Force at the right moment.
Actually I have noticed similarities between this duel and that of Darth Nyriss against Lord Scourge and his allies.
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Lord Scourge is a rip-off of Darth Bane and Raskta Lsu in martial aspects and Meetra Surik in the Force:
1. During his time at the Academy, Scourge had discovered that there were many ways to draw upon the power of the Force. His natural talents had led him down the path of the warrior: learning to channel his emotions into strength and raw outbursts of lethal energy. (SWTOR: Revan)
2. "I have studied your records from the Academy and observed your battle with the mercenaries in my courtyard," she said at last. "You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction." (Darth Nyriss to Lord Scourge)
3. SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)
4. As the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)
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Meetra Surik needs no introduction IMO. She is also powerful and battle-hardened. She participated in the Mandalorian Wars and proved to be instrumental in the downfall of the dangerous Sith Triumvirate. Martial skills wise, she matches Lord Scourge.
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Regardless of the talents of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik, this is how the battle unfolded between them and Darth Nyriss:
"Someone's coming!" Meetra said.
Scourge turned to the guards still sitting on the floor.
"Ready your blasters, you fools!" he shouted.
As they scrambled to their feet, T3 let out what could only be described as a shriek of terror. An instant later, the little astromech came tumbling down the stairs and bounced across the floor as if he'd been shot from a cannon. He landed in the corner on his back, his wheels still spinning.
"Get Revan out of the way," Scourge said to Meetra.
As she dragged the Jedi's unconscious body into the nearby cell, one of the guards drew his weapon, while the other rushed over and picked his discarded blaster up from where Revan had kicked it aside.
Scourge nodded at the guards. In response to his silent command they crept to the foot of the stairs and peered up toward the door above.
A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks.
Scourge took a step back, knowing exactly who had been responsible for unleashing the fury of the dark side against the hapless guards.
Nyriss made her way slowly down the stairs, the outspread fingers of her left hand still crackling with electricity. In her right hand she held her lightsaber, the blade humming softly. By the time she reached the bottom, Meetra had emerged from the nearby cell.
She ignited her lightsaber and came to stand beside Scourge.
"What's this?" Nyriss asked, her voice mocking. "Another Jedi?"
When neither of them answered, she turned her head to the side and laughed bitterly. "The Imperial Guard will make sure I never leave my stronghold alive," she told them. "But neither will any of you."
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.
]An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge's attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.
Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.
Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
"Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?" Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.
The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.
"Gaze upon me and see your doom!" she declared. "I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!"
Darth Nyriss first took care of T3-M4 droid; then she took care of the two guards simultaneously; and eventually she took care of two talented Force-wielders (EXPERT duelists) simultaneously.
Darth Nyriss apparently represents a mixture of Darth Bane (with orbalisks) and Darth Zannah in capabilities.
However, Darth Nyriss proves to be much more calculative and effective in her actions then Darth Bane (with orbalisks). She doesn't grants her opponents any kind of opportunity to go on the offensive against her and/or coordinate their efforts against her; such is her skill and command of the dark side. Unlike Darth Bane (with orbalisks), Darth Nyriss cannot afford to take risks and she doesn't.
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Just check what Darth Bane does in the opening phase of the duel:
As they burst into the room a man who could only have been Darth Bane charged recklessly toward them. In any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter, as Raskta raced ahead of Farfalla to carve the Sith to pieces. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)
In contrast, check what Darth Nyriss does in the opening phase of the duel:
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive. (SWTOR: Revan)
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Notice the difference in strategy here?
Darth Bane (with orbalisks) recklessly charges towards his opponents (i.e., Raskta Lsu and Valenthyne Farfalla) and in this manner, provides ample opportunity to his opponents to attack him and coordinate their efforts against him.
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You may argue that the Jedi in Darth Bane's case were aided by BM but orbalisks effectively nullified this advantage:
Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)
In addition, orbalisks augmented Darth Bane's power. In the nutshell, orbalisks and BM cancelled each other out.
Regardless of the benefits of the orbalisks, Darth Bane still didn't demonstrate the ability to prevent the Jedi from coordinating their efforts against him with his Force powers. He did not demonstrate the ability to toss a Jedi away from him with an invisible wave of rippling energy while he would concentrate on the other. After Johun Othone joined the fight and Darth Bane was disarmed, the Sith Lord temporarily broke Jedi coordination by unleashing a Force Wave. But Darth Zannah's intervention brought the much needed relief.
Your claim that Darth Bane could kill Raskta Lsu with a Force push is also misleading:
The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)
She could die from impact with the wall. However, she wasn't good at protecting herself from Force powers and neither she was physically as strong as Lord Scourge.
As far as the claim of Darth Bane (with orbalisks) as an unstoppable juggernaut is concerned;
Zannah felt the gathering dark side power of her Master, but in the instant before he unleashed the storm of deadly purple lightning, the Ithorian reached up from the floor and clutched him by his ankle. A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.
Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap. (Darth Bane: Rule of Two)
No sign from Darth Bane of having his guard up to save him from his own attack during this moment. Need I say more?
Revan's raw power and command of the Force was sufficient to overcome an even deadlier dark side attack:
Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.
Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.
"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."
Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
Scourge slowly clambered to his feet as Revan helped Meetra up. In the corner, the upended astromech let out a plaintive whistle and awkwardly managed to rock himself back into an upright position. (SWTOR: Revan)
The attack was so lethal that even Darth Nyriss's own defensive abilities failed to save her from it.
In the nutshell;
1. Darth Nyriss puts even Darth Bane (with orbalisks) to shame.
2. Revan is more impressive then Worror.
Unfortunately for Darth Bane, he didn't concentrated much on increasing his understanding of Sith Sorcery. His martial skills had no answer for this threat. Someone such as Darth Nyriss may have had answer for this kind of threat.
My likes are irrelevant here. Revan's chances are to determined by his command of the Force which is exceptional by all accounts and in a time when true Sith existed.
However, it was more than the Jedi's raw power that interested Scourge. Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scour0ge was eager to learn from his experience. (SWTOR: Revan)
Sorry bro, Darth Bane seems to be outgunned and outclassed in this contest. My conclusion remains unchanged.
Well;
Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been [Color=Red]beautiful[Color] had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job. (The Force Unleashed)
She and Darth Malgus bounded across the ruins of the Temple, their blades flashing, locking, the speed of their duel so fast Zeerid could barely follow their movement. Despite himself, he found the combat beautiful. (SWTOR: Deceived)
Nothing implies that Revan is weak in any aspect of the Force. He cannot be since his command of the Force is immense.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:24 AM
You need to understand the difference between feats performed in an instant and feats performed after gathering of power. By using the example of Darth Bane, I have contrasted this difference for you above.
In addition, absence of proof is not proof of absence. In each example of Revan's TK based feat (in the novel), emphasis of the author is on Revan's self-control rather then on the Jedi Master's raw power in effect for devastating results. Revan is shown to be very calculative about how much power he wishes to exert in a given situation.
As an example:-
Under calm situation:
Reaching out to the Force, Revan focused on the lid. After a moment it began to move, the edge grating along the lip of the lower half of the sarcophagus as it slowly rose into the air.
Careful not to let the heavy lid drop, he moved it off to the side and gently lowered it to the floor. Then he stepped up to the sarcophagus and peered inside. (SWTOR: Revan)
During the heat of combat:
A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.
The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust. (SWTOR: Revan)
In the second scenario, Revan's performance is impressive by even Jedi standards. However, Revan performed this feat in split-second or even quicker; no gathering of power involved in this case as well.
For another example involving TK based feat from Revan, please check my response to member (Eminence) below.
One particular event in which Revan's raw power is in effect is against Darth Nyriss:
Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyris's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord. (Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion)
Greatest feats in Star Wars always involve gathering of power in which raw power of the individual is unleashed to devastating effect or for amazing results.
I wouldn't be so quick to make this kind of claim for a character whose full extent of abilities are not yet known and neither the character has been explored much in terms of Force powers.
As hinted above, collapse of an ancient (unmaintained) Temple doesn't proves that Darth Bane would be able to accomplish anything significant against an opponent as powerful as Revan with his TK based efforts.
Stop relying on superficial aspects of combat to support your arguments from now own. These tactics are useless.
Can you identify these opponents for me? Vague statements will not help your cause.
This feat is also about self-control rather then about devastation.
Details are in my response to member (Eminence) below.
What do you think FLS does? And it is not possible to contain FLS with a single Lightsaber.
I know that game mechanics are not canon but in SWTOR, Revan's powers are very impressive and only means of defense is to evade them.
So now we have a measurement of volts?
A typical lightning bolt contains 1 billion volts. Hmm.
Revan's understanding of the Force is not limited to techniques preferred by Jedi.
Those who know how to absorb and deflect Force Lightning; also know how to unleash the same power. Yoda did so against Dooku as an example.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:22 AM
My intention is not to blow anything out of proportion.
I admit that I do not know if durasteel is supposed to be lightweight material or not. The author did not offered any concrete measure of the weight and size of the two doors in question here.
We are left with hints instead:
1- Both doors are enormous in size, heavy and made of durasteel.
2- The Imperial Guard individuals stationed inside the Citadel can draw on the power of the Sith Emperor to aid their actions and/or help themselves.
However, the most important aspect of the feat performed by Revan is that he did not intended to rip these doors apart from their foundations. Revan was being very calculative about how much power he wished to exert on these doors to force them open. Reason is that Revan's plan involved 'resealing of these doors' once he and his allies would be inside the throne room. Purpose was to prevent potential reinforcements from getting inside the throne room to assist the Sith Emperor.
Therefore, this feat is not at all intended to be a measure of power on part of Revan but rather how much self-control he had.
No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR: Jedi Knight Profile)
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:33 AM
Lot of typing, but your discussion of a completely unrelated battle does nothing to speak to Bane's prowess. As to the lighting, there hasn't been a single account that I've read where anyone wielding it has thrown up a shield while doing so. He was caught off-guard due to his own arrogance by thinking a downed foe was a non-threat. To assume he would do the same when going one-on-one with Revan is ridiculous.
Started writing and then the cat deleted 10,000 words.
**** it. Legend, you are wrong. Just saying that Revan has great mastery of the Force does not mean that he has great mastery in all areas. Unless he actually demonstrates ability with Force Speed it would be retarded to say that he can match Darths Sidious or Bane in its use.
Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only proves that Kas'im is very strong. It demonstrates nothing to do with any other Force user and only the stupid would say otherwise. A few chapters after that Bane casually rips through a 'trained Force-wielders' defenses and crushes them with the Force. The idea that anyone with Force defenses can block Force attacks of any degree of power is laughable.
I have no idea what they point of that lengthy and rambling comparison of Bane and Nyriss is supposed to accomplish other than making me sneer in utter contempt. If you want to make a thread between them, do so. I will relish crushing you.
There is no evidence for Revan being a duelist on par with Bane at all. No evidence that his understanding of the Force extends into lightsaber combat to the degree that it does in, say, his ability with Tutaminis. Force Users are skilled in different aspects of the Force. Demonstrating proficiency in one aspect proves nothing about their proficiency in other aspects. Raskta Lsu was weak in the Force yet her incredible martial prowess meant that she was the greatest duelist of the age. The concept that Bane is outgunned by Revan despite Revan having absolutely zero evidence of superior lightsaber skills isn't even worth considering.
The fact that Revan has meager showings with TK is not a defense, it is his failing. Until he demonstrates notable ability in that aspect it would be the height of foolishness to just assume that he possesses it.
They were technobeasts that he was fighting. Some of them creatures like Rancors. What does it matter, they were made out of metal and he disintegrated them. End of story.
The rest isn't even worthy of comment.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Jan 8th, 2013 at 03:01 PM
Revan's understanding of the Force is praised in general sense in the novel; their is no hint of specialization or anything.
Example 1:
His advanced techniques, combined with his ability to draw upon the dark side, allowed him to quickly dominate weak minds. Strong-willed subjects were more of a challenge, yet in the end he always got results. Until now.
Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force.
Hint: Revan was strong willed and his command of the Force was also great.
Example 2:
She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.
Hint: Revan's command of the Force was superior to that of everybody else's whom Meetra Surik met. (Want me to go through her history for you now?)
Example 3:
Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.
Thinking about that power gave Scourge pause. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would.
Need I say more? I think that you haven't read the novel properly. You probably just skimmed through it.
So words like 'blur' should satisfy you? Seriously, this is childish approach to debating.
Drew Karpyshyn have made it clear in his novels that speed and precognitive abilities are associated with command of the Force. It is obvious that the author wrote Revan's novel for mature audience who fully understands his mindset from his previous novels.
The manner in which Revan outguns a highly martial opponent is indicative of the fact that his speed and precognitive abilities are extraordinary. He successfully dodged a freaking lightwhip strike with his acrobatic maneuver:
One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.
It is obvious from this sentence;
Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons
-that the dueling actions between the Imperial Guard and Revan and his allies are too fast for normal human senses to grasp them.
In addition, Revan had fought in the Star Forge before and was the star of that battle. Do you think that an sucky individual in terms of speed and precognition would be able to pull off such a feat? Did Revan had unlimited time or something? He had to reach Bastilla Shan's position as fast as possible so that he could help turn the tide of the war; otherwise, Sith were in better position to win.
When you discuss Revan, logic and common sense applies.
Get the memo now?
Stronger then Revan?
You need to go back to the drawing board. Start reading Darth Bane: Path Of Destruction novel again. It offers in-depth explanation of the science behind martial development of a Force-wielder. Maybe, you need such writing for Revan to make you understand that how good he is.
Or why not just email Drew and let us know his answer? Easier way out? Instead of wasting time with inadequate counterarguments; do something beneficial.
Also, do you seriously think that these 'trained Force-wielders' hold a candle to someone as powerful and skilled as Lord Scourge; let alone Revan?
Two duels are related to each other, nature wise. And your failure to understand the comparison only reveals your limitation in understanding an in-depth analysis of skills and strategies of the characters in question. Your reliance on superficial outcomes would result in another failure from you.
OMG! Bane destroyed a Temple? He must be a God? In reality, he failed to do anything to someone weaker in the Force then him in a duel.
A word of caution: start thinking beyond superficial aspects of duels.
Evidence exists. Your failure to understand it is the issue here. I have attempted to explain to you the evidence but it escapes you. Your reading strategy is flawed. Go through my explanation as a whole and not just point to point wise. Try to grasp the crux.
Raskta Lsu might be the greatest duelist in her age; but not necessarily in history. And Bane's reckless strategy allows her to many land blows on him. Such a genius.
Also, have you read this:
Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.
Bane's strategy was flawed in this encounter. He was not being calculative. Funny thing is that even with orbalisks, Bane lost in the end again and to a relatively much weaker foe; Worror.
Genius, Revan's intentions matter. His feats represent his intent. Go through my previous responses again to ascertain this.
So technobeasts now compare to powerful Force-wielders? Another superficial feat that you cling to.
Probably beyond your grasp.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 8th, 2013 at 06:00 PM
So what? Just because he has no mention of specialization does not mean that he is strong in lightsaber combat. There is no evidence that he is. Dooku is praised for being strong in the Force and the darkside. This does not mean that he's equally skilled in all its aspects, such as telepathy or sith sorcery for example.
Again, how does this translate into lightsaber prowess?
The person with the greatest command of the Force Meetra met was Kreia, who is only notable for her drain. Either way, its her opinion and is subject to being wrong.
OMFG! This PROVES that Revan is the ****ing Flash because........
:?
You utter trash, I have specifically talked to you about this and expressed that words like 'blur' do not satisfy me:
Learn to read English or go back to debating in your own language.
It is only through intense study and training that one can become more proficient at using the Force. Raskta Lsu was weak in the Force yet was incredibly fast because of her intense training in lightsaber combat and that she was so proficient in amping herself with the Force. There is no evidence that Revan was skilled in the use of Force Speed. Besides which you need evidence to support a claim. You have nothing to support the idea that Revan is that great a duelist or that he can match Bane or Sidious' speed.
Oh my god, will you shut up about Revan beating a ****ing non-force sensitive. It is not impressive in the slightest. No matter how many times you bring that up to me I will never be impressed by it.
OMG he dodged a lightwhip strike!? Yawn. It wasn't even a lightwhip genius. The text clearly says that Revan dodges an 'electrotaff'. Either way, who cares about the weapon, neither is faster than the other. Bane moves so fast that it appears like he's wielding a dozen blades at once. He can move so fast that other Force users couldn't even see him move. Revan is nothing to Bane.
Lol. No, it says 'ordinary soldiers.' All that indicates is that Revan is above an ordinary soldier. I'm really freaking impressed. However will Bane defeat him now? And it doesn't say that they couldn't sense them, it says before they could draw their weapon. Which not many people could do if someone slashes at them and their weapon is still in its holster.
Considering that Lord Kopecz was able to slaughter an entire platoon of the Republics best soldiers before they could fire more than once, the same Kopecz that was defeated in a duel by Farfalla, the same Farfalla that Bane was able to force back even with Raskta and Johun helping him, this is not impressive in the slightest.
Who cares. He had help from his companions. The Exile fought through an entire Sith temple by herself and nothing indicates impressive speed from her.
In defending from TK perhaps.
How about no. Drew's personal opinions are not canon plus he's a bit dim in the first place. I don't care about what he says.
No I do not. Thats my point. You were arguing that the defenses of a 'trained Force-wielder' were being underestimated and could block Banes attacks. As I showed this is bullshit because Bane shreds through the defenses of even Sith Masters with ease.
Probably because your rambling, incoherent pile of shit was so stupid that I couldn't grasp what the hell you were going on about.
This is hilarious coming from you and your history of pathetic arguments. Look at this picture, Revan killed two people in a single slash! HE MUST BE A LIGHTSABER PRODIGY! REVANS LIGHTNING CANNOT BE BLOCKED! FVCK YOU LOGIC! Revan has the speed to deal with Bane! BECAUSE HE DOES ALRIGHT! I DON'T NEED ANY DAMN PROOF! Revan had 'experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force' THEREFORE BANE IS HOPELESSLY OUTGUNNED IN A LIGHTSABER FIGHT! Seriously, the only thing of worth in your posts are in how utterly hilarious your arguments are.
As I said, Bane destroying an entire temple is leagues ahead of whatever Revan has done with TK. Even if Revan could block Banes attacks, since he is so much weaker in TK than Bane it would exhaust him to do so. It is only logical that when one is stronger than his opponent, he can overpower him, regardless of resistence.
Except when he killed him.
Again, Kas'im blocking Banes attacks only prove that Kas'im was strong, not that Bane was weak.
A word of caution: Start thinking.
Considering that you completely miss the point of why I mentioned Raskta in your following paragraphs, this is hilarious. Never change Legend.
Your arguments for the evidence you have is terrible btw.
You missed my point, brains.
No they do not you twit. Merely because Revan wasn't going all out does not excuse his weak showings. Unless there is evidence of strong TK, is it impossible to assume it.
Also, nothing you've posted mentions what Revans intentions are. You are just assuming that you know them. As usual you fanwank defenses for your favourite characters when they fail to measure up.
Did I say that they did? All I've said is that Bane has disintegrated over a dozen metal opponents with a mere thrust of his hand. This is a telekinestic feat beyond anything Revan has performed a dozen times over. When Revans best feat is opening a door that 2 people can open though, that isn't too hard.
Whats beyond my grasp is how you can delude yourself into thinking that you are anything but a punchline to me. Maybe if you put EXPERT in big capital letters a few more time I'll be convinced.
So Revan is an idiot to use a lightsaber in his duels? If lightsaber dueling isn't his forte, why it is his most preferred choice of weapon for combat?
Keep in mind that the terms 'strong in the Force' and 'command of the Force' imply different things; the fomer hints on raw power; the latter hints on Force Mastery (in all its aspects).
His performance against an Imperial Guard individual doesn't tells you anything?
Do you think that Imperial Guard individuals are supposed to be fodder or something? Canonically; no.
Sorry. It is Nihilus.
Also, Kriea demonstrated other skills besides Force Drain. She knew a lot about lightsaber dueling arts as well. The fact that she managed to telekinetically use several lightsabers simultaneously in her duel against Meetra Surik after loosing both hands; is an indication of her not-so-ordinary command of the Force. She eventually retrained Meetra Surik in the ways of the Force. Give credit where do instead of blindly lowballing the characters when you feel like it.
Once again! Your mind is stuck around just speed. When discussing martial arts/skills, any argument which solely revolves around a single trait is bound to fail. Martial arts is a science in its own.
Do you know that every Jedi/Sith is supposed to possess superhuman traits by default?
It is obvious that 'command of the Force' influences traits such as speed, reflexes and precognition. However, your pitiful mind is unable to grasp this established canonical fact because you are lost in superficial aspects of the duels. You have shown utter lack of understanding of the science involved in Jedi dueling arts in Star Wars thus far.
Check this example:
A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus. The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust. (SWTOR: Revan)
Revan performs this whole feat in split-second or faster. His reaction-rate (which is a form of speed) is perfect by Jedi standards.
Another example:
Their attention drawn for just an instant by the body of their leader tumbling to the floor, the two remaining Mandalorians faltered. Revan used that moment to unleash a sidearm throw of his lightsaber. The blade went spinning out in a wide arcing path that ended both their lives before they could move.
Revan adeptly caught his lightsaber by its hilt as it returned to his hand, then slowly stood up straight, his ears still ringing. (SWTOR: Revan)
Once again! Revan's reaction-rate is perfect by Jedi standards.
Can you spit out then what satisfies you? Any other kind of superficial point?
Check following statements:
Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way. He dived behind the cover of the Emperor’s statue, his mind assessing the situation. (SWTOR: Revan)
Two hovering patrol drones similar to the one he had dispatched earlier were the first to arrive on the scene, swooping down to floor level from one of the catwalks near the eastern wall. Scourge charged, moving with the supernatural speed of the Force. (SWTOR: Revan)
An individual whose 'command of the Force' is lower then that of Revan's can move very fast. You think that Revan would be relatively slower or faster? Tell me? Are you capable of using logic or not?
WTF? "There is no evidence that Revan was skilled in the use of Force speed" WTF?
Revan, for all his command of the Force, wouldn't be skilled in one of the most basic things a Jedi is taught as a padawan?
Genius! Revan was trained as a Jedi Knight prior to the Mandalorian Wars. Do you understand how Jedi Knights are trained?
Damn man! You have lost it completetly.
These individuals were empowered by the Sith Emperor at his Citadel. Also, ever heard about martial arts? You show total lack of understanding of the science of martial arts. Highly skilled martial arts can instinctively react to moves of the opponents in advance (the concept of precognition is based on this real life talent).
Read this again:
The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen's mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard's activities. Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise. (SWTOR: Revan)
And this:
Though not attuned to the Force in the classical sense, the elite soldiers had a connection with the Emperor, allowing them to draw strength from the dark side. They were formidable opponents, even for a Jedi. (SWTOR: Revan)
Thanks for correction. However, it isn't easy to dodge an actual strike based move from any dueling weapon with acrobatics.
'Wielding a dozen blades at once' sounds like a description of lightsaber strikes in motion.
Can you explain the highlighted speed below?
Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth. As Veela and two of the others— reacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters. (SWTOR: Revan)
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:42 PM
However, it has been proven earlier that Revan's reaction-rate is perfect.
Revan's confrontation with Mandalorians on Rekkiad affirms that his reaction-rate is perfect for even battle ready (skilled) soldiers, let alone ordinary soldiers.
Big deal; Revan slaughtered an entire army on Star Forge.
Bane actually perceives Revan as a champion of the dark side:
Bane wasn't surprised that Kas'im didn't recognize the quote. The words had been written by Darth Revan nearly three millennia earlier. The Masters were as lax as the students when it came to studying the ancient writings. It seemed the Academy had turned its back on the past champions of the dark side. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
According to the author; only two helped him and they may have helped in different manner then you expect. Sith commander stationed on the Star Forge actually credited Revan for destroying Sith Forces stationed on the Star Forge. And any kind of help that Revan got, ended at Bastilla Shan.
As far as Meetra is concerned, just because the author chose to not describe her speed; doesn't means that she is slow. Combat performance wise, she matched Scourge (who is very fast as indicated earlier).
Only in your mind. I know that you will cling to any level of desparation to overrate your favorite character. Bane thinks much highly of Revan.
Revan managed to blunt the impact of Force push from Vitiate. Do the math.
"Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed."
He is an author of Star Wars lore. Enough said.
Obviously, he will dominate weaklings.
You are spewing incoherent pile of shit here; filled with lot of misconceptions.
Jan 2nd, 2013 07:16 PM
