Where did I say the X-Men haven't done shit for humanity? The X-Men saving the world is done in the hopes because A.) it's the right thing to do, and B.) in the hopes that if they do x amount of good deeds, they'll be accepted. Neither of which is a bad thing nor a strike against them but their primary purpose has always been a non-violent means to promote equality among the species. Just like the Fantastic Four, while having saved the world and beyond numerous times, never intended to be a vanguard for Earth, but rather an exploration team (or family) that will defend Earth if need be. And again, I never said the X-Men saves the world only from mutant related threats (though threats that are mutants or otherwise specifically related to them are their primary adversaries). And again, AvX shit on multiple characters characterization wise, X-Men and Avengers alike. It is an altogether horrid event that throws out years of established characterization to sell issues. And really, placing the blame solely on Cap and Tony is a wild inaccuracy.
Cool list, but most of the people you mentioned were already directly involved with the X-Men on some level or aren't field members.
This is where you said it:
Again, I don't understand how the X-Men being motivated to fight for the rights of their species somehow detracts from the overall good that they have done for the world(and the universe/multiverse). Here is where you said that the X-Men mainly save the world from mutant related threats:It isn't a wild inaccuracy at all. While I agree with you that AvX shat upon the individual characterizations of many characters, you're in denial if you think that the cause for the whole mess didn't rest on Cap and Tony's shoulders.
I am not sure whether it matters, since most of those characters are non-mutant (super)humans, and all of them have been actively involved in the X-Men's affairs, and have also been major members of one X-team or the other at various points in their histories. The point is that you demanded how many mutants the X-Men have in comparison to the Avengers sporting mutants among their ranks. My answer was a sufficient one.
He knew about it after it happened, and he continued to harbor her. Clearly not a smart move on his part, if he was serious about "doing more for mutants".
That was in response to the idea of blaming Cap and the Avengers for not doing anything for mutants by their absence in those arcs. It makes as much sense as blaming the X-Men or saying they didn't care when they weren't featured in crises which the Avengers were involved in...which is none. Especially when we already have numerous examples of Cap being outspoken for mutants and openly supporting them.
Cyclops, in spite of all of his experience and knowledge of the Phoenix Force, somehow thinks its arrival will be a positive one. It literally defies explanation. The ball was always in Scott's court. It could have stopped at pretty much any point he wanted it to. When Magneto is constantly telling you "Hey, dude, chill out lol" you should take a long hard look in the mirror.
Which doesn't detract from what I said. It is an impressive list, though.
What did you want him to do? Murder her or let the X-Men murder her for something that wasn't her fault?
It had the potential to be a positive one. With Rachel guiding her, Hope could have taken on the Phoenix and used it to jumpstart the X-Gene in humanity again, just like she did with Wanda...even though Wanda and the K'un L'un training didn't make sense at all. And with it, the Phoenix 5 were turning the world into a much better place. It wasn't a "bad" thing for Jean either. Only when she was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix, and the Phoenix 5 only started going bad after they were constantly attacked by the Avengers.(Except Namor...Namor was a colossal dick)
And things would have gone much smoother if Cap didn't bring the entire Avengers with him to basically kidnap Hope.
Last edited by KingD19 on May 9th, 2013 at 08:31 AM
Then you shouldn't have gone on to defend this line of thought when it was subjected to criticism from the poster against whom these remarks of yours were originally directed at. As it stands, you seem to honestly think that the X-Men have never been there to help save the Earth from whatever big menace that it faced, when such a notion couldn't be further from the truth. And anyways, as far them being in the same events that the Avengers faced, that's what inter-title crossovers are for, in a shared universe nonetheless.
Notwithstanding the fact that everything was in indication of it's coming ultimately reigniting the mutant race and benefiting Earth's evolutionary cycle, how exactly is it justifiable to blame Scott for his faith when Tony used pretty much the same thing as the ultimate solution for this event? The ball was always in Scott's court? Are you kidding me? The Phoenix Force was torn apart into 5 pieces courtesy of Tony Stark, and it ended up in 5 unworthy hosts as a result. We've already seen the devastating effects of what happens when the Phoenix completely corrupts its in the form of Jean Grey, and that was a host with whom the Phoenix has the most intimate bond. The fact that Scott didn't just straight up nuke the whole planet when he was going crazy is actually testament to the restraint he was showing to the dark influence of the Phoenix power.
It was a sufficient response to your original demand. Be happy with it.
The X-Men would have put her on trial, as was evidenced by Scott's remarks in Children's Crusade. Handing her over would really have been a gesture of giving then an opportunity to extract justice for the senseless slaughter of their kind.
I clearly stated, numerous times, that the X-Men have done things to help humanity and have saved the world from threats not originating from mutants. That said, it doesn't change the fact that they're primary goal has always been to promote equality and understanding between humans and mutants and to defend the world from mutants who would jeopardize that. The first issue of the series is testament to that as well as their most infamous and enduring adversary in the form of Magneto. I don't think that Cap or the Avengers should be blamed or otherwise criticized for "not helping" mutant kind when Cap's done plenty for them in the public eye via his endorsing of Pietro/Wanda to say nothing of else of others like Beast and Storm. To that end, it would be stupid to blame the X-Men for all the times they weren't there helping humanity as "not doing enough" because of them being absent.
Scott went all militant at the drop of a hat and AvX firmly pushed him over the edge. The seeds had been there for a while, but really, the way his character had developed (badly) ensured that things weren't going to end pretty. Scott not going completely bonkers by event's end doesn't mean he deserves a cookie. History has an overall less than positive view of the PF and what happens when it manifests suddenly. Scott, by all rights, should have known this, but instead wanted to reignite the mutant race in spite of the risks involved. For someone who wants to protect both humans and mutants, it reeks of irresponsibility.
I already touched on it.
Assuming Rogue or Logan didn't gank her first. It was clear, abundantly so, that Wanda wasn't in her right mind. They didn't want to help Wanda, they wanted revenge (or "justice") for something that was beyond her means of control.
Except that it's not just when they're saving the world. Marvel makes it a point to state that mutant affairs are largely ignored until it benefits or worries someone on one of those teams. It's more than just "this is your little hero universe" going on.
You can tag as many pointless smilies to your post as your want, the fact of the matter is you did that only after having the utterly laughable premise behind this line of thought pointed out to you. Before that you were content to defend it against curryman.
What the hell are you talking about? Scott saw Cap's illegal invasion of Utopia as exactly what it was: an illegal invasion. I love how you take every opportunity to demonize every single action taken by Scott in that series, and go out of your way to either ignore or delve into apologetics for Cap and Tony's actions. You also don't know much about the Phoenix' history from the likes of it either, because in every single case where a PF-host went bonkers, an outside agency was involved in twisting them. Rachel Grey is the perfect example of what a Phoenix character would be like were they not tampered by malicious forces. In the case of the P5, not only were they not the intended hosts of the PF, but the Force was already fractured by the time it was forcefully shoved in their bodies. This case again illustrates the Phoenix gone wrong as a result of the foolish tampering of an outside agency, in this case Tony Stark. All the planetary destruction notwithstanding, the Phoenix was coming to Earth to reignite the mutant race, and this much was made clear in the series' tie-ins itself, and which it ultimately did achieve, ironically in the same manner as Scott had foreseen it to begin with.
Then stop fretting over it.
I love how you make an excuse for Wanda because "she wasn't in her right mind", yet refuse to give the same benefit of doubt to the P5 despite the on-panel evidence literally telling us that they were rapidly losing control of their actions to the corrupting influence of the Phoenix power that had been forced upon them.
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Last edited by TheGodKiller02 on May 9th, 2013 at 09:59 AM
Anyways, I am logging out due to the problems my wifi is creating for me right now.
However, JaketheBank, don't think even for a second that I am backing down or that this debate is over between the 2 of us, 'cuz it's not. I'll be back some hours later.
Prof X obviously. He's a great dyplomat. So is Steve but unlike Xavier he's also a symbol and thats the problem. He cant represent Earth. Don't take it the wrong way but America isn't exactly everyone's favorite country, so a guy with American symbol on his chest teaching everyone how to live and what to do will not be appreciated by many.
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May 9th, 2013 07:52 AM
I clearly stated, numerous times, that the X-Men have done things to help humanity and have saved the world from threats not originating from mutants. That said, it doesn't change the fact that they're primary goal has always been to promote equality and understanding between humans and mutants and to defend the world from mutants who would jeopardize that. The first issue of the series is testament to that as well as their most infamous and enduring adversary in the form of Magneto. I don't think that Cap or the Avengers should be blamed or otherwise criticized for "not helping" mutant kind when Cap's done plenty for them in the public eye via his endorsing of Pietro/Wanda to say nothing of else of others like Beast and Storm. To that end, it would be stupid to blame the X-Men for all the times they weren't there helping humanity as "not doing enough" because of them being absent. 
