If you were to read up on current continuity, you would find out that Jean is NOT a host for the Phoenix Force, she is in fact the form the force takes on in the physical plane. With that in mind the above opinion is inconsequential.
If you were to refer back to Jeans appearances as Phoenix and her bio entries you would see that it is within her abilities to render herself above all harm. It is within her abilities to bring herself back from the brink of death and shrug off injuries which would otherwise prove fatal to a mortal body. That is all canon. She has done these thing sbefore and after the "Xorneto" incident. The fact that she has those abilities yet she didnt choose to save herself when he attacked her renders it PIS in light of that. It was a plot device and one that was telegraphed on panel long before the issue and even in said same issue.
Jean was susceptible to Mastermind because she erected psychic circuit breakers in her mind after she had dealt with the M'kraan crystal. It was self inflicted and the point is stated in her bios. In a forum match up we dont cater for plot devices. We look at their abilities and feats and we speculate with them as a guideline. Jean has it within herself by canon to place herself above all forms of harm and if she doesnt want to die then she wont die. Jeans death in New X-men 150 was something we were prepared for by comments such as "Jean dies to be reborn", Phoenix is needed to perform a "destined disinfection", she is born and consumed in blood flame and sacrifice, but always returns. Jean even told Logan in the same issue that she had work to do and that she wasnt long for that reality (616). Despite being the greatest telepathic force in Marvel and by canon able to place herself above harm or recover from seemingly fatal injuries, Jean kneels by Xorneto and strokes him before he emps her!! A page later we see the Phoenix egg and then we all know what goes on to happen. Plot device peeps!!
Well you should now know that Jean is the human form of the Phoenix as stated on panel and as confirmed by Endsong and the latest Phoenix bio. Youre speculating about Wandas ability to react to harm automatically. It isnt sufficiently supported on panel and her last bio which came out just before House of M, but after Dissassembled makes no reference to that ability.Wanda MAY be able to instinctively apply her power for simple things however thats still no good against Genis' cosmically enhanced reactions and light speed flight.
You may consider removing someone from the field of play a victory, however considering forum rules do NOT thats rather irrelevant. If Jean couldnt return to the battlefield under her own power then it would be a victory, however as she can then it does not.
And yet Jean can forsake her human form and take on an energy form thereby doing away with such limitations. Its all stated in the Phoenix bio my friend. Phoenix is the force that makes reality possible, while at the same time the Phoenix Force itself is derived from the Crown which beyond the restrictions of reality. Jim or Wanda would have nothing to work with in a forum battle because each party goes in with basic knowledge of the other and they are at full power. Jean has the ability to place herself above physical harm and she can command any energy type in any amount. Plus Jeans physical frame had the power to manipulate the 616 universe atom by atom in the palm of her hand, it had the power to amputate 616's entire future on a whim, it had the power to contain the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal. Your comments arent supported on panel.
If you were to read Uncanny X-men 462 again carefully you would see that while they knew the chaos wave originated from Earth, they were unable to determine its source. For all we know THAT is the reason why they decided to destroy the universe as a last measure. Given that Roma made reference to the warp being "global" in scale and the fact that that is the only on panel reference we have to how big it is, there is really no debating it. Anything else is speculation. Id wait for Wandas bio to come out and then we'll see.
Wanda didnt pose a threat to all that is. The chaos wave did. It was either a spillover of the reality warp on Earth 616, or it was a result of the tear she cause in the walls of reality (Legion sparked off a similar wave by tearing the walls between realities in Legion Quest). Either way her power proved to be a catalyst, she never directly generated and maintainbed the wave. Her actions were merely the cause behind it, therefore any resultant destruction was not a feat of hers. Not something she could necessarily achieve by direct application of her power.
The crux of the matter is Jean as Phoenix has been killed, manipulated psionically, and is given to emotional unrest.
The "humanity" Jean presents as an "avatar" is the weakness.
She's subject to probability, and therefore she can be, and HAS been, defeated, and can again, meaning Wanda and Mad Jim Jaspers can defeat Jean as Phoenix.
If Jean's wig's been split, you can't acquit.
She wears a glass crown. It's already been shown in canon material. All your essays are meaningless when the fact remains Xorn killed her, Necrom raped her, Mastermind brain f*cked her, and she was shattered and a woman scorned.
The Chaos Wave was a possibility realized. The realization of possibilities is Wanda's power, she can consciously and unconsciously manipulate probabilities, possibilities, and causality. She caused the wave. Your explanation is hollow to anyone with deductive reasoning.
"A probability manipulator unwittingly caused an unwanted possibility to occur."
Nope the crux of the matter is that the only times Jean has been killed are in circumstances which were entirely under her control. It wasnt down to lack of power, or lack of foresight or lack of ability. Jean stated she dies to be reborn, she stated she had work to do elsewhere and she stated that she wasnt going to be around much longer because of said work in the same issue she later died in. By canon material Jean can make her physical body indestructible, she has laughed off greater forces than Xorneto and when her body has been mortally wounded she kept herself from dying because it was her wish to do so. She has done this both before and after the death you love to highlight. With all that in mind and when you take the forum rules into consideration Jeans death at the hands of Xorneto means nothing. Jean can make herself invulnerable to any assault Wanda can throw her way. Whereas Wanda could NOT do the same in return.
Its been shown in canon material that Jean can withstand such damage and her death was explained away as Jean having work to do elsewhere. It wasnt down to Jean lacking in an area. Youre acknowledging one side of the argument whilst dismissing the other and as such your argument is as ever completely without merit.
Crown status is solid as ever.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on May 10th, 2006 at 03:10 PM
That sentence does sum it up indeed. Your previous paragraph however is irrelevant as it is speculatory and unsupported on panel. Wanda may be able to manipulate probabilities, however it is naive to assume she can materialise any probability whatsoever. You have no evidence for that and given that the reality warp she created was stated by herself to be a taxing effort we are given on panel a guide to her capacity. No speculation required or wanted.
Wanda unwittingly caused the wave as a result of her actions. Its not a direct manifestation of her power.
Thats all.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on May 10th, 2006 at 03:09 PM
wow, this is getting insane now. i was just throwing in my two cents, on the matter i didnt think i would be taken on like that, but still when since did we start putting 100% stock in bios and shit any way.. and since when did specific feats from specific events had to be mentioned in said bio entries to be deemed relevant? And...and...where does all this super strict adherence to "as per forum rules" thing came from out of nowhere?
.. in essence what you are saying is anything that happened to Jean in comics that made her look bad is PIS, bad writing, or "happend as per some pre-ordained purpose" and when you see that there are ppl out there who has a reasonable shot at f ****ing her up, you're like no, no, no lets stick to forum rules, that way she has a better shot of looking good..... thats just kind of...i dont know... lame dude. as far as my arguments not being supported on panel, thats ridiclous! I base them on 13 yrs. worth of comic book reading. I dont speculate
i have seen wanda's powers kick in reactivly to protect her from immediate harm, i have also seen her deduce ways of f ****ing up ppl almost intuitively, like her own little version of cosmic awareness, so just cuz YOU havent seen some of her more impressive feats that doesnt mean they didnt happen.
you seem to underestimate probabilties. in comics no matter how powerful a person is they generate a number of probalbity fields in any given situation, wanda has the power to poke thru pockets of reality and probability and make them happen here.. so here's an idea "NO MORE PHOENIX!" *poof*
For a start, you contributed to a debate, as such you put your opinion up for critique. I read your post and responded. If you are sensitive to point where you cant take criticism, then dont put your opinion on the public table. It happens its a forum.
Noones putting 100% stock in the bios. The bios arent the only source im drawing on to support my argument. It is both them and many on panel references and as the point im making is shown and stated in both sources, this really shouldnt be up for debate. As for specific feats having to be referenced in the bios they dont usually. However in the case with Wanda in Disassembled, Wanda was employing constructs to fight the Avengers as was guessed by some members on panel by the way they just materialised out of thin air. Wanda then went on to attack the Avengers with "Dormammu". The fact that Wandas bio stated she attacked the team with constructs, the fact that Wanda went on to attack Strange with a Dormammu construct in Excalibur #11 AND the fact that it is not mentioned in Dormammus bio that he was abducted, mind controlled and used as a pawn by Wanda to fight his arch-nemesis (quite a major incident which would almost certainly feature in his bio) that kinda gives me a hint that it really wasnt Dormammu.
It was actually stated on panel and it was stated in the bio that after the M'kraan crystal feat Jean erected psychic circuit breakers that shut off the majority of her power and made her vulnerable. It was this that made her susceptible to Mastermind. With the references from official sources that is NOT debatable. PIS.
All throughout New X-men even from 2 years before the Xorneto incident in issue 150, it was stated that the Phoenix had work to do in the future and references were made about it being the way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn. In fact in issue 128 Jean had a vision of Xornetos rampage in New York and says to Xavier " I am born and consumed in blood, flame and sacrifice. And return. Always coming back" Xavier says "What is this place? Are these words from the future?" Jean foresaw her death and she even went on to saw to Logan in the very same issue of the incident that she had work to do and that she was not going to be around much longer. She then was "killed" by Xorneto.
Given that a) Jean has been shown to take far more damage (Jean has laughed off blasts from a deranged Firelord trying to kill her, eaten stars from the core) thus supporting the bios claims that she can give herself any level of durability she desires
b) She is the greatest telepathic force in Marvel and was in a battle situation, therefore she would have been aware of Xornetos intentions
c) Both before and after the incident Jean has been delivered fatal (for a mortal body) injuries (she had her heart stabbed out) and yet she kept herself alive. Why? Because it was her wish to do so.
With all that in mind it was PIS. If Jean didnt have to work on behalf of the Consciousness, then as shown on panel Jean in the very same issue, Jean could have if she wished just stayed alive and killed him with a thought. In the same issue her ship had crashed into the sun and yet she was unfazed, she protected Logan and merely constructed a new ship. Blatant PIS.
Forum debating is an exercise in speculation so thats not quite correct my friend.
Dont presume to know the extent of my comic book knowledge Manny. Wandas powers are still on the whole activated by conscious thought, while it is true that she can instinctively unleash aspects of her power to protect herself, it has only ever been for low level attacks, therefore your point is irrelevant. On top of that the b*tch is currently looking for her marbles so shes hardly gonna be on top fighting form.
And you seem to over-estimate not only probabilities themselves but Wandas ability to manipulate them. Given that Wanda has only conclusively warped Earth 616 as stated by Roma in her "global alteration" reference, what makes you think she has what it takes to beat one of the most powerful forces in creation? Wanda may be able to manipulate probabilities but it is very naive of you to assume that she could bring about any probability she desires. Thats not the case at all especially when in House of M Wanda stated that to warp Earth for her friends would prove very taxing therefore giving us an insight into her capacity. The cube beings are also global reality warpers with the potential for universal scale warping however they are still classed as minor omnipotents.
Wanda manipulates reality on a limited scale, she has not been shown or stated to have total mastery over it. Her own comments tell you that is far from the case. Phoenix creates reality and is the power behind it. Phoenix stems from beyond reality in the White Hot Room and as such isnt something Wanda could wipe from existence even if she could manipulate reality on a sufficent scale, because its existence isnt determined by reality, IT makes reality possible. Sure she could materialise probabilities that could harm Jeans physiacl form, but at the same time Jean as shown on panel and stated in her bio can give herself any durability she wishes, wield any energy or power she wishes and in any amount. Theres nothing Wanda could do that Phoenix couldnt swat aside, or outdo with sheer greater power and omniscience via the Consciousness.
Wanda is a deraned mutant with great power, she is no cosmic force. To cut the battle short, Phoenix incinerates her from the get go. Game over.
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May 10th, 2006 01:23 PM
