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As i was saying, didnt the ANH novel said that both vader and obi wan grew stronger than the the last time they met? And did i not mention what vader was capable of with the lightsaber in the EU?
Lets not forget he was still inexperienced at that time being only 4-5 weeks after the movie and that he got Backstabbed , still being able to kill 4 jedis in his "crippled half droid" situation is impressive, that people seem to imply vader would get wtf pwned by any bpdy(no not you). They even seem to forget that for lightsaber skills, his pysical strength makes up for his speed and that he custamises his djem so with other forms to make up for lack of speed. And what? just because they got beaten by vader means they suck? i dont think so, that would be and will be the most irritating i would hear about vader beating his opponents then what about the dark woman? Had this been OT vader the fight would go a completely different way, remember? That ot vader is patient, more intelligent and that he knows how to kill his opponents?
Last edited by BoratBorat on Dec 11th, 2006 at 04:20 AM
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Wrong, you are the least respect debator here captain planet, no body takes you seriously
Saying that doesnt change the fact that you have no skills at all
Lucas only said he was halfcrippled, and when did vader EVER fight a real opponent in the movies? either that luke or obiwan
I dont have the luxury of looking for it for a n00b like you
ok i got that wrong, but do you need to insult? thats why no body likes you sock
lol, that was because i was sleeping fool. now im back, And since when have you built a proper argument? none ! And by the way, advent just corrects what we said, unlesswe chose to argue
Last edited by BoratBorat on Dec 11th, 2006 at 04:28 AM
Sorry that it took so long for me to post. I had to squeeze in between the MASSIVE EGOS that invaded the thread. Whew...
Look, dude, you two are about dead even in terms of the whole "least respected debater" here, from what others seemed to have said about you both. You're both pretty damn cocky, you're both quick to dismiss the abilities of others, and your reputation has suffered for it. So, why not argue the debate instead of arguing about which one has the more respect and the more debating prowess?
I wouldn't be quick to call other people "least respected", Planet. Despite your self-apparent "extreme skillz!", you're in the same boat that Kadesh is. This is, of course, largely due to your temper (which, I hate to tell you, does nothing but ellicit laughs and humor from the rest of us), your arrogance (which makes us question as to why you are so arrogant. Most arrogant people, of course, have impressive abilities of some sort), and your ability to spin things. See, you accused me of lying once (and you've accused Lightsnake of doing the same thing), and we've proven today that you like to put your own spin on specific things (like Kas'im "redirecting" Bane's energy blast...), and then you go on to harass people who don't immediately offer "proof" to claims that you don't like. Then, there's that time where you didn't like that canon sources disagreed with you, so you rattled off some bullshit about "having my own imagination and not writing love letters to Lucas and Chee and having them make up my own mind" when it suited your rather immature purpose. Your opinion = jack shit in the face of canon. Thought I'd use this to reiterate that.
By the way, it's "won", not "one", oh Lord of Debating.
Then your math is off by a teeny bit (and I stress "teeny"). If RotJ Sidious was 15% greater than his RotS self, then Darth Vader (assuming 80% of RotJ Sidious) would be 95% of RotS Sidious.
Of course, I'm in college and I still suck at third grade math, lol! But, there's other ways to do that, that was the simplest I could think of. He's 1% stronger than you said, of course, that's only if we were to actually accept the premise that Lucas was a) referring to Sidious as seen in Return of the Jedi, and b) that the difference in power from RotS to RotJ is actually 15%.
The omniscient narrator doesn't say it, the fallible characters (Old Ben and Darth Vader) do say this, however:
"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words"
But, unlucky for you, that comment contradicts the actual movie, where the dialogue is actually:
Darth Vader: "Your powers are weak, old man." Ben Kenobi: "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
So, in this case, what he said in the novel is irrelevant. It contradicts the highest form of canon, it's stated by fallible characters, and moreover, also causes a discrepancy between Lucas' words, and what starwars.com has to say. Which are both said about 20 plus years after the now ancient ANH novel came out.
This point holds no water.
Did I mention that I don't give a shit? Oh, no. I seem to have left that out. Well, let me say that I don't give a shit. Feat wars are irrelevant.
Don't take that as me being mean to you, by the way. It's just the easiest way I could put it (plus it lets me vent frustration).
Did you see those words typed in my post? No, I said "Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill?". It's a legitimate question, it has nothing to do with Vader himself. I'm just putting into question their level of skill. I can't imagine how seven Coleman Trebors would cause a huge problem.
Everything else in your post really has no place for me to respond to.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
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You do know that the movie doesnt actually show everything right? are we suppose to know what dooku was thinking while watching it visually? i dont think so, Novels explain most of the things we see in the movie that are not shown,
And didnt you say whats mentioned in the novel is canon? you mentoined that in the thread about vader using dissipation didnt you? Contradiction between your words? i think so
Just for your information, there is a reason why feat wars are mentoined, several reasons, like why vader was able to kill 3 of the jedis swiftly and easily, why? because he has skill, he proved that he was capable of what he can do
While i am putting in the level of vaders skill, Jedi academy has proven that he does order ASP droids and that he practises them to buff up his lightsaber skills and it was noted that they knew every lightsaber form and were stronger than an ordinary man,
And i really do not like it when people assume vader got weaker as the 19 years past, in ROTS he has not even began to practise learn and fully master the dark side as he did much later on in his sith years, O yea and its really impressive when people say anakins force powers are better and stronger when his force choke cant even kill his own wife who is not a force user
ok.... no point pointing fingers like that, anyways i dont care what he says, he can flame me all he wants. Ill just argue the debat then
Last edited by BoratBorat on Dec 11th, 2006 at 09:49 AM
whz do people make topics like this.... it's obvious ani wins.... he is much more powerful the dooku, and sidious said to yoda: ''Darth Vader will become more powerful then either of us....'' no use thinking who wins...
Dude this is a complete joke, and probably the worst insult you could ever give me. I am leagues above Kadesh in debating, to say that we're on the same level makes it pretty clear that you have some kind of grudge against me (as do the 10 or so quotes you have in your profile, LOL!). But seriously, I'm actually insulted, to compare me to Kadesh is quite possibly the most humiliating thing you could do to me, that's just embarrassing.
Now aside from the haters out there, I'm recognised as one of the best here, don't be foolish and try to make out that I'm on Kadesh's level, just ask anyone who has nothing against me, and who is somewhat intelligent, they'll say that I'm leagues above Kadesh. It's actually kind of funny that you would come out with that kind of crap, because you've now made it publicly known to the forum that you're either a dumbass, or you have some kind of grudge against me, because I don't think Sidious is the bomb. I mean is that like the only way you can get back at me for destroying you in the 'Yoda vs. Kas'im' thread, because you've clearly backed out of that won (- lolz).
Again Escape, what the hell is this kind of crap. How the hell do I come across as angry on this forum? Now I'm not going to be a prick like you are and lie, I'm not going to come back and just say the same about you, because I'm an honest guy. But please, I'm hardly one of the 'angry' people on this forum. That would be Sexy, Kadesh, and Darth Subject, saying the same about me, again, only makes it clear that you're either a dumbass or you have something against me. Either way, you only lose credibility.
Didn't realise that arrogance was a flaw. And please, at my best, there aren't many people above me. In fact, the only people who would be able to beat me at my best, honestly, I'd say would be Advent and Lightsnake, nobody else can touch me, so please, don't be ridiculous.
Slightly exaggerating a feat (even though I wasn't, in my eyes at least) is nowhere near the same as misquoting LFL officials, or lying about sources, don't be ridiculous.
Excuse me, but I never argue against canon, I just interpret it differently.
Wow, you caught me out on won spelling mistake, well done, good for you!
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lol what ever you say captain planet, Now, are you going to go on with the debate or continue to humiliate yourself? Honestly i wouldnt say you are a bad debator, but you did become bad these past few days because you got arrogant and cocky, no im not insulting you, im just giving my opinion, want to be a good debator? Just debate civiliy and i think what Escape said is true about us, so why not bother to change?
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Um its best you look up a few scrolls. She only told me what i had made wrong about the novel thing, That means getting destroyed? i dont think so. At least she did something, unlike you who just brags
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not entirely, and all i had mentioned was one point about the novel, she hasnt replied to the other things i have said. She herself said that, And nobody is right all the time, learn to accept that
Did anybody notice what I said about Vader and Dooku percentagewise other than Advent? Don't (and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular) let your egos get in the way of the d@mn debate!
I'm going to repost all my points to get the debate going again.
Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader.
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.
Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.
I said it before, I'll say it again, he obliterates the old man. I don't see how, considering that Vader knows Dooku's tactics from when he was Anakin Skywalker, Vader couldn't block his Force lightning. Then it comes down to a duel. Now then, anyone who's read the ROTS novelization knows why Anakin beat Dooku- brute strength. And if you're going to deny Vader being stronger than Anakin, you're ON CRACK! Pardon the term, please. Granted, Vader is slower than Anakin, and would take a few glancing blows from Dooku. But I see Vader eventually crushing Dooku.
Anyway, not that I mean to refute what you're saying, but saying that Vader is not a true Jedi (in power) is preposterous. As Darth Vader (in suit) he preformed feats that I doubt (he has shown nothing on this level thus far) Anakin could have (ex. Force Crushing a tank, throwing his lightsaber long distances, fighting two Masters and two knights (I think that was it) in RoDV, choking an officer from a totally different ship in ESB, bringing a tree down on the Dark Woman, etc.). In any event, this isn't Anakin vs. Vader. This is Vader vs. Dooku. Anakin beat Dooku by a substantial margin; in the ROTS novelization, Dooku can't do anything to stop him. Even if Vader is weaker than Anakin, he still might be able to beat Dooku.
Vader is also stronger, and has armor. Vader can afford to be hit a couple of times. Unlike Anakin. Or Dooku. Vader's strength is enough to pummel the Count to the floor.
Dec 11th, 2006 04:07 AM
