I'm saying that just becasue source books show how a Jedi uses a form doesn't mean the Jeid invented it.
No. The next paragraph makes no mention of it being a Jedi style only that they use it (which I have never denied). Sidious says it's a "sith style" which seems to indicate that they created it. However, that doesn't mean that Jedi won't use it afterall Sith will use "Jedi styles" as well.
lol. How does that answer my question? It doesn't. According to RotS, Windu made Vaapad to channel his own darkness into light, not his opponents. If Juyo already did this he would not have needed to develop the form.
I never said that a Jedi isn't in control of it only they are using the darkside and are using rage.
Kyle Katarn, Jaden Koor, Plo Koon, etc...
Just because you have control over these dark feelings doesn't mean that it becomes light.
Last edited by ares834 on Jul 6th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
So you believe the Sith invented the form simply because of Palpatine's comment? Even though all source books explain it from a Jedi point of view? Even though the next paragraph explains why the portion Palpatine underlined was incorrect? Wow.
Red herring. The argument you've been making is that to use Juyo, a Jedi must also be using the dark side by proxy. As the source extrapolates on: Juyo masters are NOT tainted by the dark side because they keep their emotions in check- ie. the mental forge. It is only lesser practitioners who allow themselves to be swayed.
And you failed to address this part of my quote: "Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique."
According to the source book (which you've selectively picked a few quotes to base your argument from) a Juyo master DOES channel their OWN darkness into a weapon of the light as well. Ergo, there's only one difference between the forms.
Only lesser practitioners allow themselves to be tainted by the dark side. Masters of Form VII do not.
Can't attest for the other 2, but I know Plo Koon was not utilizing dark sided emotions when he manifested force lightning.
This poor logic would also apply to Vaapad, then. I mean, just because Mace is in control of his feelings (just like Juyo masters are) doesn't mean it becomes light... Right?
This is why I brought up the point about Niman. Sure every source book may talk about how the Jedi use it but they did not develop it. Furthermore there is nothing that contradits it. Ergo, I'm going to believe one of the most knowledgable people in the mythos.
And yet nothing he says was proven incorrect.
Except using your rage/anger/hate is the dark side... Thats Force 101 and comes directly from ESB.
I'm not quite sure why you brought it up to be honest. I never said it was forbidden to the Jedi... Regardless, Force Lightning isn't forbidden as Jedi such as Korr use it.
Lol... There is no mention of channeling darkness into light. Channeling darkness into a mental forge=/=channeling it into light.
Yeah, which is why I've always said they were being tainted by the darkside...
Nope. Unlike Juyo we have actual quotes that show that through some unknown means it turns darkness into light.
And I'll believe the Jedi wouldn't teach a Sith style to their students. To believe the Jedi order would knowingly/willingly expose students directly to the dark side is an absolutely ludicrous line of thinking that goes against the entire philosophy of the order.
Quite wrong. At this point it seems that you are being obtuse and ignoring what was blatantly written.
The source states that Juyo only "seemingly" puts a Jedi in violation of the code, but then goes on to explain that masters of the Form keep their emotions in check (mental forge)- thus they are not tainted by the dark side. It's only when lesser users of the form allow their emotions to spill out wildly that they can be led down that path. This shyte was specifically stated in the source. Stop arguing with it.
There is no source stating that a Form VII master must also be tapping the dark side by proxy. Not. One.
It brings you close to the dark side, yes. However, coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping/channeling the dark side. That's logic 101.
Yeah, well, that's the NJO for ya. I can assure you that FL was very much a forbidden technique when Yoda was running things- and for good reason.
If you're a Jedi.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever, then you must be using those emotions for good, as opposed to evil.
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever, then you must be using those emotions for good, as opposed to evil- ergo you are utilizing Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'.
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Again: Juyo brings you close to the dark side- but coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping the dark side.
Since when has speculation and beliefs replaced canon? We have a knowledgable in-universe source stating that Juyo is a Sith style. And they aren't exaclty willing to give the secrets of Juyo to any Jedi... It is a very restricted from afterall.
I love how you say I'm arguing against it (I'm not) yet you are arguing against another line in the book... Hypocrisy much? Regardless, none of that contradicts what Sidious says.
Yes there is...
"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."
"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."
Thus to truly be using Juyo you must use the emotions that are the dark side not those of the Light.
It doesn't just bring you close it actively uses the emotions that are of the dark side.
Plo Koon was using it. Admittedly he doesn't appear to be using the darkside. Futhermore, Korr continues using the FL after Luke and hir order return to the more orthadox view of the force. Still not sure how this is relevant since I never said Juyo was forbidden.
Wrong. Using the dark side, even for good, does not neccesarily make it into "light". Afterall, the pathway to hell can be paved with good intentions.
Plus, if there is anything that the Mortis Trilogy shows us light=/=good nor does dark=/=evil. So sure it may be a "weapon for good" but not neccesarily "of light".
Last edited by ares834 on Jul 7th, 2011 at 09:37 PM
Yeah that's why I've said (multiple times) that Juyo is only taught to a select few students, because it can lead them down a path to the dark side. However, masters of the form know how to come close to the dark side without directly tapping/channeling it.
Yes. It does. And like I said before: the Jedi simply would not teach a Sith/dark side style to their order. It's utterly ridiculous to assume otherwise.
Again, practitioners of Form VII do come close to the dark side- but coming close =/= directly tapping it...
"They [Mace and Depa] acknowledge that it [Form VII] is a dangerous regimen that may cut close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Jedi/Sith: EGTTF
"This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Star Wars Insider #62
Negatory. At least 2 different sources (see above) state that a Jedi practitioner of Juyo comes "close" to the dark side. Coming close to the dark side =/= actively utilizing the dark side.
Per Plo Koon himself, he was not utilizing dark sided emotions when he manifested "electric judgement".
Again: a master of Juyo can come close to the dark side, without directly tapping it.
Then please elaborate as to how Vaapad can be deemed a 'weapon of the light'. After all, it draws on the SAME emotions as Juyo + your opponent's darkness. If anything, it should be more dark/evil than Juyo, no?
Canon>your beliefs. And considering how no mention is made of the Sith creating the style (by the Jedi at leas) it isn't hard to believe that they don't know.
According to this guy they are.
First, this seems to be describing Vaapad rather than Juyo here, at least from the small excerpt you posted. Secondly Sith intensity=/=using the dark side in fact. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".
Sith intensity=/=using the dark side. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".
Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.
And my point with Jaden Korr still remains. Plus is there an actual reason to believe Koon is electric judement rather than FL?
Because it has some unique properties that Juyo does not have... I don't know how it works, but then I also don't know how the the superconducting loops works either. It just does.
You're beginning to make no sense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat" absolutely equates to tapping the dark side. Incontrovertible.
...Unless you think "Sith intensity" entails a Sith channeling the light side of the force when they're engaging in lightsaber combat (I'm sure that's what Maul was doing.)
I thought EJ and FL were essentially the same ability, with a different title..?
This simply does not suffice.
Fact: We know a master of Vaapad and a master of Juyo channel the exact same emotions in battle.
Fact: We know Vaapad also channels an opponent's darkness in battle.
So by your definition, it [Vaapad] certainly would not be dubbed 'a weapon of the light'- but it WAS. So why would Juyo be any different?
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 8th, 2011 at 12:06 AM
Nope. "Focus on physical combat" denotes exactly what it means... Focus on physical combat. Meaning Juyo users focus on physical combat as intensely as the Sith. Which makes sense considering how difficult the form is to master. Furthermore, if we do take it your way, it just means they don't tap the darkness as intensely as Sith. RotS Anakin, for example, was called "half a Sith" (or something like that by Dooku) and yet he used the dark side against Dooku.
Eh, not really sure.
Because it is a different "form". Just because Vaapad has some unique funtcion that allows darkness to become light does not mean Juyo has it. Afterall, Windu created Vaapad specifically for that reason, he wouldn't have needed to do so if Juyo already did such a thing.
Nonsense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability" equates to channeling the dark side in battle. Simple.
A Jedi practitioner of Juyo comes close to the dark sided intensity of a Sith in battle- that's why Juyo is "the most dangerous Form in regard to falling to the dark side". However, a Juyo master's channeling of those emotions is what prevents them from directly tapping the dark side. It's what can make Juyo a 'weapon of the light'.
Vaapad and Juyo each fall under Form VII of lightsaber combat. They each require the same type of emotions in battle. They each channel those emotions.
The only difference between them is that Vaapad channels an opponent's darkness as well. Thus if the emotions required for Vaapad can be used as a 'weapon of the light', common sense dictates that the emotions required in Juyo can as well.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 8th, 2011 at 01:25 AM
I thought the whole point of Mace creating Vaapad was to channel his own inner darkness into a weapon of light. Why would he go through the trouble of creating a new form if juyo already did that?
Yes, vaapad also allows Mace to channel another opponents darkness, but that is not the reason he created it.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Jul 6th, 2011 10:10 PM
