Well I'm still not entirely sure which Vader we're meant to be discussing, armoured Vader doesn't show any precog whatsoever so that rules him out, Anakin/Vader has these things but I don't think it's likely he'll be able to follow every bullet that Blade dishes out to him. He isn't trained in dodging our deflecting projectile fire - he isn't John Preston.
I'm no gun expert either but bullets to dip and they do spread out and change trajectory with recoil and the like when fired in automatic and in the case of shotgun pellets as well. Plus Blade will be moving at speeds that will make it impossible for armoured Vader to pick up, Anakin/Vader will have an easier job but can't stop every single bullet from getting through - I can't see that myself.
Lets get real here the lasers the Jedis reflect are thick light beams. The hand can move a light sabre with precog swiftly to bounce those beams back. But with metal projectiles it's a different matter.
You can hold an automatic weapon still and the bullets don't go completely straight, they move through a circular cone of influence at their target. And even if those bullets hit the lightsaber they turn to molten metal splattering into the target. Ouch!
And name a film where Vader moved that Saber with enough speed to really reflect so many bullets.
Now I'll grant the basic fact that I gave Vader the win early in this thread due to his force choke and gun grabbing feats. As should be if Blade had no idea who this guy was. Vader should win.
But if both were standing across for each other. Vader unleashes his Saber. Blade unsheathing his katana. Then suddenly Blade releases his automatic. I see a problem for Vader.
If Vader goes for a for a force choke he cops bullets. Due to Blade being undead.
If he goes for the gun grab Blade is insanely stronger than Han Solo and may just be dragged towards Vader with gun still in hand shooting.
If he tries to reflect the bullets physics states the Light Saber wouldn't be enough to withstand the random amount of bullets.
And those bullets took chunks of walls.
StarWars made the mistake of always using lasers as ammunition regardless of how poor the assailants were. And we don't know how durable that armor he wears truly is. Those buttons on his chest look mighty vulnerable.
It's an interesting argument. Star Wars has never had projectile bullets in it's canon.
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Last edited by the ninjak on Mar 5th, 2012 at 08:09 PM
The problem is they are still the same person, and precog was standard jedi abilities. It's why Obi-Wan blinded Luke, to teach him to use his feeling and instincts instead of sight. Anakin never would have lost it.
And I'm not saying Vader will block every bullet but at the same time the argument that the laser fire was so slow is kind of ridiculousness imo as they weren't really that slow.
Plus in the end all Vader has to do is Crush Blade's head like he did to all those 'metal' objects in ROTS
A bit off topic but it's like Star Trek: First Contact where the Borg adapt to all the phaser modulations and Picard picks up a Tommy Gun in the holodeck and creams them - problem solved.
Same person in a factual sense yes, but the inherent differences of each version are enough to still confuse the issue; and I presented arguments for both anyway so there should be no problem.
No character in SW has ever used a 'head crush' technique so there's no basis for it's use. Because you can't present the conditions required for such a technique to be used if it doesn't exist. Metal has been crushed, okay, but what allows it to be crushed? Does this technique work on metal because it's inanimate, if so, why? What's the range of this metal crushing technique?
You can't answer because Vader only shows this briefly in a closed-off room in ROTS, and not at all in the OT I believe. It doesn't give a lot of information for it's effectiveness so it's pointless.
Oh, come on, you're saying that SW, with it's various examples of imprisonment, torture, strangulation, executions, burning to death, dismemberments, genocide, electrocution is just a happy, playful kiddies tale? Employing that in a movie with the themes mentioned is nothing, all they'd have to do is a show a character holding his head screaming followed by a 'crack' then a body slumping to the floor;the ruined skull doesn't need to be even shown.
So, it's not a technique of Vader's (or any Sith), if he didn't use it in the movie it's not viable to this discussion IMO. Furthermore, he has also never crushed any weapons in SW either when he has had the chance so Blade's guns/sword are very safe.
Ok I'll agree they did show some hardcore stuff, but what exactly keeps Vader from doing what he did to all those machines and metal to someone's head?
We already know the force can effect living beings so that explanation is out.
And Vader can still crush all of Blade's guns easily enough. There's no evidence to say he can't.
I don't think it's applicable because it's not a technique he used.
However, I'll relent for now and let's say he can do the head crush. The same methodology applies to the force choke - it takes pinpoint concentration (and we've established that Vader needs to face the target in order to do it, as all of his force chokes have that common link in the movies).
Blade can move around Vader and keep out of his vision while attacking with his guns. Vader cannot force choke/crush whilst moving around, keeping Blade at bay with his lightsaber and using telekinesis(if he drops any one of these defences Blade will move in). Blade is a vampire and should be able to resist attempts to crush his head (he soaked up a lot of damage vs Nomak), by giving Vader other things to concentrate on. Focus is the key, as we've only seen Vader do one Sith power at a time, he can't combo his abilities.
The crushing the guns/sword option can't be substantiated with just a brief scene in a small room. That gives no indication of his metal crushing ability at distance and again, it isn't a tactic of Vader's to do this. He didn't crush any gun/weapon in the OT, or in the PT either, he used other means like lightsaber or telekinesis. For example, he could have crushed Han's blaster in ESB, or Luke's lightsaber in ESB but he didn't.
Vader's moved objects at range but never crushed them, that indicates to me he can't and that should be case in this contest. Blade doesn't need to get close to use them and they can't be flipped out his hand because he's too strong for that.
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Mar 5th, 2012 08:03 PM
