Originally posted by Dolos
You know, I'm glad you found your calling in Christianity. You're probably a good person, and there's no shame in what you do.
Thanks.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14492433#post14492433
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=430#post14491269
As you know, my mind and behavior are being reshaped and splintered by an ever-deepening inner space of concepts that were once simple to me but are now becoming more and more complex.
Concepts like theism, I'm agnostic in the sense that my mind isn't even in a position to rationalize a philosophy or form a stable moral position because these concepts are affected too frequently. I'm overly sensitive to new information, and I don't think the way I did a moment ago.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Thanks.
I'm sorry if I offended you I go on here to just say everything that I can think of. It's my more than my diary. If one wanted access to my innermost thoughts, read the right posts here at the right times.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I think that you hit the nail on the head in part b of your reply. But I would take it a step further and propound that many (not some) of the truths revealed in Scripture are very (not rather) undesirable because the Bible exposes us for who we truly are. The Bible tells us (without making any apologies, softsoaking the situation, or mitigating it) that we are all unrighteous, that we are sinners, that all of our righteousness (i.e. good works) are like filthy rags, that we are spiritually dead, that we are Hell-bound, and that we need Jesus Christ in order to be saved from all of these realities.
No that's not it, some people don't like genocide, slavery, and others. The fact that Slavery, owning other people, is never said to be wrong in the bible is disturbing to say the least. It does instruct how to deal with slaves however. It doesn't come out and say slavery is OK. However giving rules on how to have slaves is good enough.
Originally posted by Dolos
There's probably more of a likelihood that a person is saved from twenty armed assailants because twenty lightning bolts hit and kill each and every one of them at the same time. There's probably more of a likelihood that a specific material composed of anti-matter atoms falls from the sky but any earthly matter doesn't have the right assortment of negatively charged electrons quite in tune for them to annihilate each other until this thing collides with a person and causes him to undergo spontaneous combustion. Lol, 1 in over a [b]googol chance. When do you see statistics that assert this kind of unlikelihood? Never.You can go ahead and choose to nit-pick between that and the impossible. I say nit-picking because it kind of is,
To defy such super-astronomical odds is the strongest case could ever ever have for God. So if God were real why would he create humans that need to undergo trials and tribulations to have happiness, that seems silly? That's why I have my theories of the malevolent pantheon being the spawn of Uranus's fear and doubt, they wanted a theater were they could experience death, because they are immortal and they cannot. The universe wasn't God's plan, it is the result of the evolution of fear and malevolence. Call me ungrateful, but look around you. If were to find the balance of good things happening and bad things happening to people, you'll find the the aggregate of all good things that happen to people is nothing but an infinitesimal meager little morsel against the nigh-omnipresence of the aggregate of everyday inconvenience, right down to mass death and suffering of large masses of people caught in terrorist acts or war or tragedies every hour of every day. The scales are a little off for a benevolent design. [/B]
We don't know that the astronomical constants can be anything else than they are. So in reality if we were to predict the likely hood of it happening with the data we have than the constants are always what they are.
When a leaf falls from a tree there is an incredible amount of specific spots it can land. As far as we know not an infinite amount of spots. However the fact it does land in one of those spots doesn't mean that it required divine intervention.
The problem is your ego in this scenario, and I am not trying to insult you. Every human being is like this. We tend to think that we are somehow significant, and that if it is unlikely for us to be here that we must have been designed. Like we are somehow the shining example of what the universe is suppose to create. When you think of the universe however you can't bring that ego with you.
“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.” -Mike Tyson
A puddle thinks, "Hey I fit this hole perfectly. So that must mean I was designed" That is probably paraphrased, and is from someone else, but I don't remember the name.
Note- I am not trying to appeal to authority with these quotes, but I think they are significant to the point I am trying to make. So I repeat these quotes are not an argument, and refuting the quotes or pointing out the appeal to authority fallacy does not diminish the arguments I have already made.
Originally posted by PepsiDragon
Like we are somehow the shining example of what the universe is suppose to create. When you think of the universe however you can't bring that ego with you.
I can and I did. I did not however, claim my simple observation as being infallible, that's called pseudoscience. Science is about filling in gaps, there's no reason to assume we aren't creating more gaps by prying and trying to understand our world so we can change ourselves to work with it better - when this could be the synonymous with changing the world through observation's ability to alter what things are and what things aren't.
You have not eased things for me. I am tempted to forget science and religion and apply this thing to what is simple, money and having fun with it. But then I feel like I've been duped, or like I could have found something more meaningful in the complexities that make my life stagnant. Or maybe I need disciplining. Either way, I want to get out of my daily routines, I'm tired of all of this.
Originally posted by PepsiDragon
No that's not it, some people don't like genocide, slavery, and others. The fact that Slavery, owning other people, is never said to be wrong in the bible is disturbing to say the least. It does instruct how to deal with slaves however. It doesn't come out and say slavery is OK. However giving rules on how to have slaves is good enough.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-violence.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
God is holy, just, and righteous, so we must construe and understand all of His actions in the Bible through that lens if you will.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=431#post14495958
I over-analyze and look at everything as if it were riddled with truths - but that's why I'm not up for grabs for anything. I think that it is the experience of something fresh, new, unstudied, unwritten about (the opposite of the written dogma of old) is what really shines light down the alley of the unknown, not "The Truth, the Way, and the Life" whatever that means. The Bible is an endless re-experience, a group experiencing the new is confined by a very limited and ancient viewpoint, higher reasoning cannot occur if everything cannot be questioned or considered as a possible truth. An idea needs to evolve, needs to be broadened, expanded, deepened; this perhaps creates more gaps to be studied and maybe it's adding complexity to our world but that in and of itself makes us more complex and, in the process of broadening our understanding of a thing more complex, we become more intelligent. Increasers.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveGod is holy, just, and righteous, so we must construe and understand all of His actions in the Bible through that lens if you will.
"Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3-5, 12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. " - Link #1
No internal contradiction there, no not at all. It wasn't like religion was a part of their ethnicity. Of course it was. Of course the examples above this quote in the link would all be said if a group were targeting someone's ethnicity. Victors also write the history books don't they (in this case it isn't a history book)
"Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4-6; Mark 7:25-30)."
Except for that little footnote: CANAAN IS GONE! Why didn't this god character introduce the messiah to save the cannanite people?
How exposed were the Canaanites really to the god character and his morals? Well considering the time it may have been unlikely they got any copies of the ten commandments. We take it for granted now, but mediums for writing, plus any language differences.
Also a cultural barrier. Each would have grown up believing in their own gods, goddesses, or whatever. They would have been fully convinced like any of the Israelites at that time that their god was the real one. God new from the start what it would take to convince them, and he knew he could do it non violently-as he is all powerful no?
Another criticism why use the Israelites for his dirty work, and end their lives, and mentally disturb them from killing men, women, and children alike. And FORCING them to break one of his commandments
Now more then ever I can say that the crusades were not against the teachings of the bible. ESPICIALLY by the justifications given for it in this article.
NEXT
Link #2
"What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world."
Yet it doesn't deny IT WAS SLAVERY. People owning people.
"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1)"
However it misses
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
It is OK if they are foreign, and yes they are your property, forever.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Holding his family hostage? for permanent slavery eh? Even in the afterlife key word FOREVER.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Oh biblical family values? At least they aren't selling her to foreigners eh?
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
hit them really hard, but not too hard they die right away. Seriously keep them alive for a couple days after all they are YOUR PROPERTY.
So I think your second link was a huge bust. So yes slavery is OK, but you have to follow some rules. It is still slavery. You are still OWNING other people as property.
So do you have some more links to send my way, or your own ideas going to showing. However these links probably reflected them already so no need. Don't lie admit your defeat.
I just hope you know better than those in 1100 AD, and not start killing people over it.
Originally posted by Dolos
I can and I did. I did not however, claim my simple observation as being infallible, that's called pseudoscience. Science is about filling in gaps, there's no reason to assume we aren't creating more gaps by prying and trying to understand our world so we can change ourselves to work with it better - when this could be the synonymous with changing the world through observation's ability to alter what things are and what things aren't.You have not eased things for me. I am tempted to forget science and religion and apply this thing to what is simple, money and having fun with it. But then I feel like I've been duped, or like I could have found something more meaningful in the complexities that make my life stagnant. Or maybe I need disciplining. Either way, I want to get out of my daily routines, I'm tired of all of this.
I would disagree that science is about filling in the gaps. Science is really just about gaining knowledge. Often times that just means we also find new things that need to be explained. Who knows there may never be an end to the discovery.
I am glad that you are not claiming infallibility that is important. If real honest discussion can ever take place that notion should be tossed aside.
I must ask for clarification on this, "when this could be the synonymous with changing the world through observation's ability to alter what things are and what things aren't."
Originally posted by Dolos
As you know, my mind and behavior are being reshaped and splintered by an ever-deepening inner space of concepts that were once simple to me but are now becoming more and more complex.Concepts like theism, I'm agnostic in the sense that my mind isn't even in a position to rationalize a philosophy or form a stable moral position because these concepts are affected too frequently. I'm overly sensitive to new information, and I don't think the way I did a moment ago.
I'm sorry if I offended you I go on here to just say everything that I can think of. It's my more than my diary. If one wanted access to my innermost thoughts, read the right posts here at the right times.
No apology needed. You have not offended me on here. But thanks.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=431#post14495958
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=430#post14489175
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=430#post14490456
Originally posted by PepsiDragon
I would disagree that science is about filling in the gaps. Science is really just about gaining knowledge.
Filling in the gaps of what we don't know=gaining real knowledge.
Often times that just means we also find new things that need to be explained. Who knows there may never be an end to the discovery.
Or that our observations are creating order from chaos, literally altering our reality. It seems empirically formed perceptions (the earth is round) are easily accepted by the masses because of the work that went into forming them. If not for scientific rigor and the fact that empirical and collaborative perception is difficult not to accept, the earth would literally be flat.
If real honest discussion can ever take place that notion should be tossed aside.
That is the notion behind every religion.
I must ask for clarification on this, "when this could be the synonymous with changing the world through observation's ability to alter what things are and what things aren't."
I'm asserting that perhaps what science is doing is creating locality in an non-local existence. Consciousness adds complexity to the world when its intellect is applied to the scientific process. We form an understanding of the universe, and it becomes reshaped to fit that understanding.
My will manifests into reality at an elite pace, perhaps even at an exclusive pace (the top intellect). But I have zero discipline to utilize it empirically, as a scientist with no humility or discipline or patience or willingness to adapt or cooperate I'd be a joke. I need the temperament, but this stallion is impossible to break without some severe form of psychological torture which has made me more cooperative in the past, working harder, being punished into panic attacks, I've been able to temporarily apply myself altruistically. That's why I want to try sensory deprivation, isolation, sleep deprivation, starvation and dehydration. The mind hallucinates under these circumstances, and from what I've read (here & here) that can yield a change in personality when the right motives are kept in mind.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586713&pagenumber=1#post14503004
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=431#post14495958
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=430#post14489175
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=430#post14490456