A rebuttal to your easily defeatable and easily defeated argument!
[SPOILER - highlight to read]:An initial wave of fear and anxiety over the prospect of being engaged in yet another epic debate with your fiercest and most relentless rival yet - an engagement that would have surely seen your complete and utter defeat by not only his hands but by the hands of Ushgarak, Lana and Leland Chan (LC to his friends and colleagues) is swiftly replaced with sheer jubilation and relief upon the realisation that not only has he decided not to participate in this engagement himself, but has also decided against calling in his associates to participate in his stead.
Same argument here as I used for the mental attacks. I don't think we are as far apart as I initially thought. These are TK attacks. The NAME of the attacks are merely a gameplay mechanic that allows the player to access the use of the force in that way.
Yes, they use the force to create a whirlwind, sure, but it is still just TK. So i don't deny the ability, just the pokemon name and the fact that such an attack would be so utterly unknown to Kenobi that he couldn't counter it. It is just TK after all.
our argument in a single sentence:
Kenobi wasn't using Force Wave, he was reaching out with the force to knock Anakin over.
So really I don't think we disagree THAT much... if you know what I mean.
Also, final point of contention, IF (and I absolutely do not) I couldn't counter the above and said, you are absolutely correct, and Bastilla knew all of these exotic techniques, then I would want some sort of idea HOW POWERFUL she was with each one before it could be said it would make a difference in a duel with Kenobi. A level 2, or Level 3 means nothing. There were a lot of other factors in KOTOR as well, the force ability of the user, if the user was dark-side or light-side, what special clothing the user was wearing...
Its absolutely unquantifiable exactly "how good" at force plague bastilla was.
arrrrrrghhhhhhH! i just deleted 10K words. I lose. Its just that simple. I won't address it again.
why did I DO that? I split it up correctly, then previewed the first half. Decided i liked it, COPY PASTED THE SECOND FREAKING HALF OVER THE FIRST FREAKING HALF. i'm frothy with rage.
Advent, i'll give you the freaking bullet points, but I won't type out the point by point again.
1. These attacks were probably known by the characters if they came pre-loaded. I admit this.
2. These attacks ARE used elsewhere, but it is my contention that they are NOT specific attacks that are learned, and then "activated" at specific times. They are the way KOTOR addressed allowing the player to access the force. They fall largely into mental and TK categories. While the use of the force in such a way is documented, it doesn't mean they learned a specific technique.
Kenobi doesn't "know force wave" as you put it. He simply uses the force to push anakin. Therefore a "force-whirlwind" isn't going to be completely strange to him, since he is aware of force TK attacks.
Therefore:
3. Attacks are canon, their specificity are game-play mechanics. Anyone that knows TK could do Force Wave or Force Whirlwind, it is not restricted to those that learned a specific attack of that name.
4. I brought up instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons, because those are things" that exist within the C-Canon world of KOTOR and are attainable" You used that exact quote to call those force powers canon, however, those instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons fit exactly the same category, and are still non-canon as far as we know.
5. Force Rage (i went on at length about this and made a fine argument, i'm especially crushed this one went away...) : (
in short: All Darksiders are using their anger to access the force, yes. And they may be filled with rage when they do so, but they don't employ a "force rage" to get there. The rage leads to the use of the force, the "attack" doesn't do so.
Sidious tells Luke "Use your anger" he doesn't say "activate Force Rage!"
gaahhhh, there was more points too... and now i forget. much sadness.
oh yes:
6. These specific, exotic attacks are indeed based on real attacks, but their specificity itself(the name) is non-canon, in the same way that a "combo-move" from Jedi Power Battles is non-canon.
Last edited by truejedi on Aug 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 AM
No, not inherently, hence my retort to the "Revan Twist". Of course, if the circumstances surrounding the possibly canon event are definable in a way that makes them plausible for use in arguments, such as in the case with Bastila and Motta the Hutt, then absolutely. One must have the previously established foreground first, which I do courtesy of BioWare.
Slash, I am terribly sorry, but unfortunately, I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about here or how it's relevant to the conversation.
To me, this seems more like a diversionary tactic more than anything else, because it is completely irrelevant to the points we were discussing. Over-all, this would merely negate a simple, extraneous comparison made; ultimately impacting precisely squat.
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Strawman argument, logical fallacy.
Had I said that "anything...not required to progress the game is not canon" then I would not be arguing about Bastila and Motta the Hutt, now would I? In-fact, was it not you who said that anything optional is non-canon, initially and then deleted it from your post?
As for the "Advents says that anything acquired by game-play mechanics...is not-canon", which seems true as far as I know, here is what was actually said:
Take that as you will. To restate the point: your "Revan Twist" argument requires experience points and the like to be considered canon, which they aren't. Mine requires the game developers "fixing" Bastila with that strength to accomplish the feat regardless of how one's game goes or how one chooses to play. Hence, faulty analogy, logical fallacy.
On the issue of Revan and Force Storm: in agreement with Nephthys and Dr. McBeefy, it seems fairly certain that it has been established outside of game-play that Revan knows Force Storm.
Look, you're not a bad guy, but making things up and applying it to my stance does not mean it is my argument. It's yours, and it is called a strawman.
I bet you also have the feeling of having your head squeezed firmly up your rear-end. At least that one is a true "gut" feeling. Argumentum ad intenstinum only works for television and movie detectives.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
I have had that happen to me on more than one occasion - I know the feeling. Don't sweat it. To match you, I'll try to be as short and sweet as possible on my reply.
I need to take a break from this discussion (and forum) for at least the rest of the day, because Slash has my mind in a state of tormenting, wracking pain from the befuddling posts he makes, but I will be sure to get around to addressing your posts.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
to be fair, the "Hutt" mind trick works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, am i correct? (its been a long time since i played) So in a canon sort of time-line, Bastilla doesn't always have the amount of skill necessary to do the trick.
Plus, according to Watto in TPM, mind tricks don't work at all against Toydarians. So being able to do one to a hutt doesn't say anything except that the hutt was weak-minded.
While mind tricking a Hutt is impressive it is not unheard of. Qui-Gon manages to also mind trick a Hutt in the Jedi Apprentice books.
Regardless, even if the developers intended that Bastilla (and Revan) had enough power to that doesn't make it canon. Afterall, GL intended for Boba Fett and Palpatine to die and to stay dead; yet looked what happened to that.
I'm fairly certain Bastila is always capable of doing the mind-trick to Motta; it's Revan who can end up failing if you do not have the necessary talents.
Forget Toydarians.
How does it say the Hutt was weak-minded? You're making a trait judgment call on a character which you admittedly remember virtually nothing about. Considering what we know of Motta the Hutt (that he was the prominent Tatooine figurehead) and the Hutt species in general (Force resistance) that's a huge leap of faith with no supplementary evidence.
The Ultimate Alien Anthology, Page 73, on the Hutt entry, states:
"[Hutts] are powerful, ruthless beings who continually seek to expand their boundaries of their dominion [...] Their appetite for power is as insatiable as their appitite for food. Hutts are often found at the center of business and criminal enterprises. Legality (or lack thereof) does not affect whether a Hutt will pursue a venture. All that matters is how much of a benefit - and a profit - one can get from it."
Being as I want to get off quickly, I will just make the contention that there's no indication Motta was weak-willed. In-fact, from what Lurze Kesh and others say on Motta:
"Here on Tatooine we do things Motta's way".
"Bring it to him and you can haggle all you want over the price. Although I should warn you that Motta doesn't like to renegotiate."
"I don't deal with any of that. Motta the Hutt has a lock on everything race related on Tatooine. You deal with him or you don't race."
"You'll have to go through Motta for that. He keeps track of all official standings at this track."
Hutt aside, it seems to me that he would have to possesses great fortitude, intellect, and resolve being an entrepreneurial businessman and considering the above insights.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
That is where I got the idea that Motto has to be weak-minded.
Also, pertinent passages from the Path of Destruction where bane pretty much calls Kaan and everyone else in the brotherhood weakminded for submitting to Kaan.
Bane does not fall for the trick because he isn't weakminded.
Aug 22nd, 2010 11:39 PM
A rebuttal to your easily defeatable and easily defeated argument!
