So you're just blatantly lying now? It's a totally different attack that uses a completely different method than the one Odan-Urr attempted on Kun. It's not remotely the same principle. Or at least you've established no such connection. Simply because they both involved severing one from the Force proves nothing. If the method of doing so is different, it would necessitate a different response in order to repel. And nothing indicates you can resist something through a Force bond.
Legend is absolutely right that the drain isn't a conventional attack that can be conventionally resisted. Absolutely no-one was able to resist the Sith Assassin's using the technique on them in order to grow parallel to their relative level of power. Even though that would indicate them being less powerful than the Exile and her companions. Therefore, the Assassins stand as proof that the technique can be implemented in spite of power differences.
The Exile wasn't even aware of using it and you're saying it isn't a disguised attack? Are you high or just ignorant?
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Last edited by Nephthys on Mar 18th, 2017 at 10:39 PM
1. Once again you've shown you can't read. Nowhere did I say they were the same attack; I distinguished between them earlier on. I said it was the same principle, and they both involve severing someone from the Force. It stands to reason that you can't sever someone more powerful than yourself, just like any Force power fails against a guarded, more powerful opponent. The case with Odan-Urr and Kun is merely a precedent for my claim, whereas yours is woefully lacking in both historical precedence and evidence. Temp's point about the suspect nature of Nihilus' Drain being used against opponents only when they're incapacitated or with prep also stands.
It's too bad that Nihilus doesn't actually have a Force Bond with Sidious then, huh?
2. Nowhere did I say the power wouldn't affect Sidious. I'm asking for evidence that it'll have the game-changing effects that some of you peeps are suggesting it would have. Indeed, I'm more than fine with Nihilus getting some negligible amp like the Assassins did.
3. Are you retarded? I said the power was difficult to control, which fits with the Exile using it instinctively. It's an instinctive power until you learn how to control it; that makes it hard to control. In what universe does that make it disguised? That would mean that Nihilus and the Exile appear to be using different powers when they actually use Drain, which, of course, happens nowhere.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 18th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
1. It doesn't stand to reason, it stands to your assumption. Absolutely nothing indicates that to be the case and your attempt to claim the Odan-Urr example as a precedent is woefully inadequate for the reasons that I stated. They are not the same attack. They do not work the same way. And I don't know what you're talking about with me lacking precedence, since my whole point is that the technique is unique and works in a manner unlike that of conventional techniques. Which is supported by it, you know, actually being unique and working in a manner outside of anything else.
Please tell me you aren't that stupid. The whole point of the technique is to instantly form a bond and then exploit it. Kreia didn't have one with the Masters and look how that turned out. The Exile was feeding off of random bad guys the whole game.
2. How generous. Too bad Nihilus' technique is a bit more advanced than the Assassins. As seen when it was demonstrated, its essentially an insta-kill. Since Sidious has no method of resistance, theres no reason to think he won't just be quickly severed and either die from the shock or be crushed in his powerless state.
3. You denied that it was a disguised attack. It absolutely is, since nobody was aware it was being used on them (except in the lethal version obvs) and the Exile wasn't aware she was using it. That isn't being "difficult to use" lol. The only time anyone remarks on the technique without knowledge of it is when Atton finds himself literally compelled to fight for the Exile against his will.
They don't work in the same way in that one involves blocking somebody else from feeling the Force and the other revolves around outright damaging the Force connection, but that's much the same as saying telekinesis and Force Lightning don't work the same way. They don't, but if you're stronger in the Force than the caster, you can block the attacks all the same. In this case, you can resist the attacks all the same.
Right, because Kreia's far more powerful than the Masters. This isn't hard to grasp.
Also, nowhere is it said that you instantly form a Bond to them and then exploit, lol. You Drain their connections to the Force. Draining through a Force Bond is a separate application of the power.
But since you want to bring up Kreia, Bond and Drain, I'll remind you that amongst KotOR II's cut content/script is Kreia using Drain on the Exile through their Bond, and that was not an instakill indeed. So your case falls flat once more.
It's an instakill because Nihilus is so far above his enemies; the same goes for Traya vs the Masters. There's no evidence that Nihilus would instakill Sidious with it. Your claim has no legs to stand on, especially since Nihilus' use of it has been historically suspect to begin with, as Temp pointed out. He's always prepped/ambushed someone/incapacitated them before using Drain. Without any of those advantages and against someone stronger in the Force, we have reason to doubt Nihilus' capacity to instantly kill Sidious, and your case isn't strong enough to reverse that.
You can't even quote me properly. I said it's difficult to control, not difficult to use. And indeed it is difficult to control, which is why the power starts off being purely instinctive and Traya had to teach Nihilus to harness it properly.
The rest of it doesn't prove it's disguised at all, just that people don't understand the nature of the attack. Again, being disguised would mean the power manifested itself in some alternate, misleading way, which it doesn't.
Incorrect, they don't work the same way because they mechanics of the techniques are wildly different. You can't block a Force Choke with a lightsaber. It doesn't work that way. Your example is apt in that one technique is a wall of light that physically strikes your body and the other isn't visible, isn't felt and is utilized in a manner that makes the defense used for the previous attack completely impotent.
And once again, its specifically stated that theres no defense against it and there are examples of it being used on people more powerful. The fact that you're stating that it can be resisted as if you know this for a fact when you're actually just presuming is actually quite disgusting.
What? Wtf does that have to do with anything? We're talking about how the technique works here, why are you bringing power into it? Kreia has no force bond with the Masters prior to walking into the room yet she can still use the technique on them. Nihilus wasn't even on the planet when he was wiping out Katarr, yet he still drained everything on the planet through the Force Bond technique. Being powerful doesn't have anything to do with Force Bonds. The Exile did it when literally powerless, lol.
Uh, all varients of the technique works via the Force Bonds. Theres no other method of using it:
"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives."
The Exile is the only one who can survive the attack and is a master of the technique herself, no shit.
It's an instakill because its an attack that instantly severs someone from the Force, you dolt. You're once again needlessly making connections that don't exist. Kindly show me where it's stated thats the reason.
If by "historically suspect" you mean "a bunch of bullshit" then yes, I'm aware of the crap Temp has tried pulling in the past. There's no indication of prep being required and the technique is so simple to use it can be done instinctively and in an instant.
Not understanding the attack and not even feeling it are two different things. This is becoming close to merely arguing semantics. The upshot of the discussion is that when I say that it's disguised what I mean is that the technique is hidden outside of its effects. Nobody's aware that the Assassins are using it on them, none of the party members feels the Exile gaining influence over their personalities, no one you meet feels the Exile forming a bond with them. The technique cannot be blocked because it works in such an indirect and unconventional manner, such that nobody can even recognize the method through which it is utilised or know that it is being used at all.
And that is why it is so deadly.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Mar 18th, 2017 at 11:50 PM
We're finally beginning to move somewhere. Can I have examples of it instakilling stronger people than the caster? Because I don't recall anything of the sort. What I do recall is that it's only instakilled against lesser opponents, and when used against stronger opponents it's nothing more than an amp for the caster.
On the other hand, I also recall it failing to kill lesser Force wielders as well; principally, Nihilus failing to kill Traya. Seems like there has to be a massive disparity in order for it to work. And one certainly doesn't exist here. Not in favour of Nihilus, anyway.
That was me explaining why Kreia managed it; not because the technique itself was an instakill, but because she's so much more powerful than them.
Nowhere does that quote say that all versions of the technique work via Force Bonds. As you asked Azronger in the other thread, "do you know what a full stop is?" Because he literally explains what the teachings of the Sith are — to feed on other Force-sensitives. That's separate from the previous sentence where he explains that the Exile in particular does it by forming bonds and leeching the life of others. Certainly the Exile's usage of Drain here is very different to, say, her non-canon use of it once she kills the Masters, for instance.
Regardless, let's say I accept your stance on this, because there is some actual evidence supporting it (but not exactly your quote). There remains no evidence that Nihilus could simply siphon Sidious' powers or life entirely. Given his previous failure to do so to Traya, there's certainly something questionable about it.
The Exile does it unconsciously; she isn't a master of shit, lmfao.
Anyway, you're wrong. Nowhere is the Exile permitted any sort of special resistance to the attack, bar against Nihilus. The KotORCG elaborates on this by saying that the Exile was Nihilus' polar opposite, which is the reason she repelled Nihilus' hunger completely. That means her resistance to Nihilus' Drain was specific to Nihilus alone, not other casters. Otherwise, as we've seen, Traya and the Assassins were perfectly capable of employing Drain on her. And indeed, Traya didn't kill her with the technique.
And the reason it instantly severs someone from the Force is because you're far more powerful than them. If you're not more powerful than them, you won't sever them at all (see how the Assassins use it, or how Odan-Urr failed to sever Kun). And indeed, Nihilus failed to completely sever Traya, casting only more doubt over his ability to do so to the Emperor. It seems that there should exist a massive disparity in order for the power to become an instakill. And in this case, the disparity is in favour of the Emperor.
That's not his argument. His argument is that Nihilus' Drain is shockingly circumstantial in its application. He's only ever attempted Drain against defenseless opponents.
1) Vs Traya — Nihilus opts to join forces with Sion to divide Traya's attention, then exploits her divided attention by incapacitating her with telekinesis, rendering her defenseless. It's only then that he drains her. And she still survives.
2) Vs Katarr — Nihilus has the benefit of prep (not saying he necessarily did prep for it, but he could have) and ambushes the Jedi by attacking them before they can react. Again, we have a survivor.
3) Vs Exile — Nihilus stuns the Exile's party first, proving how much more powerful he is than them. Yet he still opts to stun them before attempting Drain on the Exile.
Even with Traya vs the Masters, she only used Drain after a prolonged monologue, which again, is an opportunity to gather power and prep (she also hid from the Council Chamber for a while beforehand). If we take the script as what it should be (since the final scene is littered with bugs), she telekinetically incapacitates the lot of them before using Drain as well, so the pattern here hasn't deviated at all — potential prep and only using it on defenseless opponents.
This isn't "crap". Even if he's far more powerful than his opponents, Nihilus has historically only attacked those who are defenseless with Drain, either because they're unprepared or they're incapacitated. In this case, the Emperor will obviously be guarded and Nihilus has no way of incapacitating Sidious through other means. That certainly does call into question his ability to drain the Emperor.
That's because nobody in the Exile's party has a deep enough understanding of the Force. Kreia and the Masters noticed it immediately. Again, it's instinctive (which is why the Exile didn't notice it), not disguised. The trained eye can notice it, as KotOR II makes very clear.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 19th, 2017 at 12:39 AM
To be fair Sion was always irrelevant enough to not "split focus". He was fodder for someone like Traya (in fact she has ragdolling Sion without raising a hand).
Just to play devil's advocate, though, it is possible to argue that a disparity in power may not be the reason for Drain's success at all:
Then again, the quote itself doesn't actually rule out that superiority in Force power is required to "draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them" in the first place.
And in either case, Nihilus' historical record of only draining with potential prep and against defenseless opponents and his failure to fully sever Traya remain uncounterable black marks on his reputation.
No doubt she was more powerful than him even then, but her attention was clearly divided because you see her turning to Sion when Sion ignites his blade, and later see her gaze fluctuating between Sion and Nihilus.
Seeing as my esteemed padawan has done quite a good job of arguing a lot of these points in my place I will keep this brief.
Where is the evidence that he joined forces with Sion to divide her attention? Sion and Nihilus were equal collaborators in their mission to betray her, so it was only appropriate for them both to be there. It seems that Sion would have wanted to be there in any event; it looked pretty personal on his part.
Is it not possible that stunning them all instantly was simply a faster and more reliable way of rendering any threat they could pose ineffective as opposed to draining all three immediately? That doesn't mean that he wouldn't be able to drain a single opponent as or nearly as efficiently.
But to reiterate the earlier point, it's silly to say that a regular drain could set a precedent for the Force Bond variety. When a Force-user is bonded to another, they effectively already hold eachother's strength in their grasp; all that remains to be done is the final work of taking it. There are additional variables to consider, such as who is the more dominant beneficiary of that bond.
None of what you've said here has been established. Bear in mind I don't have a horse in this race, I'm simply a seeker of truth, and I would have no problem with Sidious being more powerful than Nihilus. But there are a number of complicated issues at play here, and it's far too sophisticated a topic for you to simplify it and attempt to silence discussion. I mean, I'm not convinced you can even make sense of what it means for Sidious to be more powerful than Nihilus in the first place; how do you imagine that their respective power can be measured and compared?
It's off-panel. We don't see it, but we can clearly see Traya's Force connection being ****ed with given that she couldn't even call her lightsaber to her hand on a colossal geyser of dark side energies. Refer to my quotes on the last page from KotORCG confirming that Nihilus drained her powers. And Traya claims to be stripped of her powers in the video.
Maybe in of themselves they might not be damning, but given that all of his seen attempts at Drain have happened under these circumstances, there's certainly something amiss.
You're contradicting Neph here. All of K2 Drain is accomplished through establishing a Force Bond with the target, according to him. So you're either arguing with him or against him.
The one who is stronger in the Force would be the "dominant" one, as Kreia claims. Regardless, one still needs to sever the other's Force connection, which is the point in dispute — can Nihilus do that to the Emperor?
No idea what you're talking about. Sources repeatedly make it known that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history; most of these come from after Nihilus' appearance in KotOR II. How is that not established?
As for how their power could be compared — by the accolades, perhaps? Which establish Sidious as the supreme Sith Lord. As we know, feats-only comparisons are fraught with problems but it could well be established that the Emperor is the more powerful of the two through showings as well. But given the highly circumstantial nature of most of Nihilus' feats, I'm disinclined to opt for that route.
It's a well-established fact that Palpatine is more powerful than Nihilus. I haven't silenced discussion; those numerous sourcebooks have. That is the truth; at the moment you're not seeking the truth but rather searching for nonexistent avenues to deny the truth.
What is to be discussed is whether Nihilus' Drain would function in severing Palpatine from the Force in spite of that power disparity, and indeed, we're discussing it right now.
Regarding whether Nihilus wanted Sion there or not; that's irrelevant to the point at hand. The point is that Sion was there nevertheless and that Traya's attention was indeed divided between the two.
While you seem to be trying to play devil's advocate, is there a point trying to be made here or am I lost? I'm asking for proof that Nihilus could indeed end the game against Sidious with Drain. And for all the claims that Drain has no defense, Nihilus has still only used it against the defenseless. I'd like justifications for why Nihilus always attempts Drain only on those who cannot defend themselves.
Otherwise the Emperor is more powerful and is a superior combatant. I'm not seeing where he loses.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 19th, 2017 at 03:24 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Nihilus' power isn't really power though, both the Exile and Traya differentiate the power of the likes of Revan and Nihilus. They both consider Revan to be more powerful than Nihilus when we know that in actuality, Nihilus' feats completely outshine any Revan incarnation.
Why is this? Because I think the difference is rather clear, Nihilus isn't powerful in the conventional sense. His power comes purely from Hunger, it's the technique that the Ancient Sith could have used to become serious planetary threats, but they didn't because that path is nihilistic in its nature. There is no real power there, you're just becoming this Dark Side aberration.
It isn't real power, it is a temporary thing and Kreia explains this thoroughly, she is echoed by sourcebooks too.
Nihilus isn't actually as powerful as the Ancient Sith or Revan, not conventionally, but his hunger is. Far more so, infact.
You can throw out 'most powerful' quotes for both Sidious and Valkorion, but in actuality, any feats comparison with Nihilus is far from definitive at all in this regard.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
So much to read through... sheesh. Sorry I haven't responded to those who addressed me (sorta rude of me), I've been busy with family and other forums.
Lemme check out the multiple pages that were added since I was gone lol.
That's really low balling Kreia. These qualities show her to be an expert on the subject:
a.) She learned the dynamics of the ability from a technical aspect. She was able to instruct Nihilus how to take his drain from a passive aura to a world consuming ability by learning of it from the texts in the Trayus academy.
-So she understands it both as a student, and as an instructor, and has knowledge that even the PC doesn't have concerning the dynamics of the ability.
b.) She was a victim of the ability which shows she understands the effects from the empirical victim perspective.
-This allows her to understand what she felt, how it felt, and what did or didn't seem to work when she attempted to resist it (as shown in the cut scene where she braces herself).
c.) She was the agressor with the ability that used it on others.
-This allows her to understand what the ability is capable of from the view of one that deploys the skill.
She has all three components to expertise on the subject. So please stop trying to sell her as an old woman weaving old wives tales.
More overall knowledgeable, sure. I don't disagree there. What you appear to be missing in this equation (and I may be wrong about your knowledge of Nihilus) is that Nihilus is primarily using a different power source which is an anti-Force mechanism. This is why there is no defense against it. This Hunger Power is fueled by the Force, so attempting to deploy a Force Based power like a resistance of some sort is akin to putting up a wall of liquid oxygen and trying to defend against a blowtorch. In fact, I've only read a page over from this and it seems like more people are missing this than should be.
Mar 18th, 2017 10:28 PM
I said it's difficult to control, not difficult to use. And indeed it is difficult to control, which is why the power starts off being purely instinctive and Traya had to teach Nihilus to harness it properly. 
