Ok lets sum up this fight. If you look in the Ichigo resect thread you can see how Ichigo has been worked out to have at least mach 35.7 speed, and Aizen exceeds him and easily deals with it. Naruto ninja's still move slower than thrown kunai, and even IF we're saying those move at the speed of a bullet, Ichigo and Aizen both move over 30 times faster than that.
2. Ichigo's power attacks easily exceeds Naruto's attack, after all Naruto's resengan just burst a water tower, Ichigo's shikai attack did this: (please log in to view the image)
that's one of his lesser techniques, and his powers still aren't high enough to match Aizen's medium level minions.
Durability: Aizen takes punches from beings the size of skyscrapers wihtout any effect., and rules creatures that easily plow through just about all of ninja in naruto. The main thing to point out about Aizen is that he has an enormous amount of reiatsu. Now one of the rules of bleach is that when to spiritual forces, for example chakra and reiatsu run together, the stronger one damages the lesser. Now Kenpachi and Byakuya have both shown the ability to completely ignore attacks by powerful mystic weapons that dwarf naruto attacks because their unconcious energy they emit is stronger than that of their attackers focused killing intent. Aizen has been confirmed on panel several times as having a reitsu several multiples higher than any captain. No chakra attack in naruto will be able to penetrate that.
Also according to vs. forum rules both opponents are given forewarning of each others basic abilities. Aizen is still able to function very easily in a fight against Itachi for the simple fact that shinigami have shown the consistent ability to locate their enemies via their soul energy, which would also make shadow clones useless against him. Itachi on the other hand has to have his eyes open at all times in order to survive against Aizen since without his sharingan he's even more screwed than he was before. Also I would like to make the point that i don't feel the sharingan would even work against Aizen. The sharingan works by tracing the flows of chakra within the body in order to allow the user to preemtively see the move that is coming. However it has proven that it can't see through attacks by beings of pure chakra(such as when sasuke was unable to sense the way in which the 9 tailed fox chakra was ging to move) Since Aizen is a being of pure spiritual energy, the same applies to him to an even greater extent.
Finally Aizen has complete air superiority, and can easily blast Itachi from the air while Itachi wastes his energy dodging him. In the end Aizen is far faster than Itachi, can easily counter Itachi's most powerful moves, is invulnerable to any attack itachi can throw at him, and Itachi's sharingan can only be used for a short period of time before he becomes drained.
well from what i can see, the guy was hiding behind the arguments of others, making NONE of his own, countering NONE, and insulting me at every oppurtunity he cud get with one liners. that makes him nuthing more than a flamer. and my debating skills and credibility are not nulled simply by your oppinion of me.
your drawing conclusions of speed based on assumption after assumption. even though each assumption has evidence and feats to back it up, if you jump from one to another, by the multiplication factor the uncertainty in feats increases exponentially.
let me give you an example. in the zabuza arc, kakashi was able to dodge an attack of zabuza where zabuza moved instantaneousy from the length of haf a footbal field away to where kakashi was. later kakashi showed to toy with that speed withzabuza. he was atleast over 2x faster than him. zabuza said that haku was far superior than him in all aspects. {disreguarding the super high end lightspeed panel feats of haku as they are too PISy to include even in examples}. even by a conservative comparison that is over 2x zabuza speed. and sasuke was able to counter it without his shaaringan and with it{1 dot} naruto with hardly any kyuubi chakra{remember, he was VERY weak in the zabuzaarc even with the chakra} easily cumberstomped haku in speed.
that puts naruto at over 2 times{again very conservative estimates} the speed of haku.
in the chuunin arc, they all got much stronger. sasuke with partial cursed sal activation was able to move far faster than his previous speed character could comprehend{as he had lost earlier to lee who he cud not even see in the fight} and as lee cudnt even touch the guys there. the sound opponents easily indicated that their attacks were the speed of sound. and sasuke dodged them while carrying naruto and sakura without breaking a sweat. that easily puts his speed up at over 4-5x times that of his appeance in the zabuza arc. next we saw lee without weights on panel move faster than any naruto character had done until then. even gaara's sand protection was failing against him. he was able to move the entire length of the chuunin stadium before gaara could blink, multiple time. even kakashi with his shaaringan was impressed, and this was after seeing zabuza arc naruto/sasuke. his speed easily trumped first time seal activation sasuke by 3-6x times{again im being conservative}. NOW he opened the 5 gates and his speed turned from superhuman to godly and he was around 10x faster than his non weight speed{seeing as how many times he could now hit gaara before gaara cud react}. and yet 3 dot shaaringan kakashi cud still see it.
if we compre this with sasuke{who had already acheived beyond lee speed and was stil trumped by itachi with a single wave of the hand} who CUDNT percieve naruto after hsi FIRST tale grew out and had to unleash curse mark 2 to counter it, then we can see that defection arc sasuke with curse mark 2 was a lot faster than lee with his first time at opening the 5 gates. easily 2-3x faster.
now i havent considered MANY pre chuunin feats here which cud make the cut but lets look at where we started from. buy any conservative estimate. zabuza travel atleast 200 metres in 1/4th of a second{about 800m/s}
and sasuke at the end of the defection arc travels 800x2x2x2x4x3x2x10x10= 1536000 m/s or mach 4654.45
{i wudnt go on to the VASTLY greater shippuden feats cause i think any1 wud get the point im making}
does ANY1 here really believe that sasuke pre shippuden cud travel at over 1.5 million metres/sec????????? i dont "think" so.
in themselves those are respectable feats and extrapolation. but if you jump from one to the other, then your gonna get illogical results. if your gonna judg bleach that way. then do the same with naruto. which has better feats and a LOT more of them. overall, logicall, in individual feats, naruto characters trump bleach characters in overall speed.
nope, it creates shockwaves compared to mini nukes against chidoriwhen its power is released, and creates craters as large as medium meteors wud make when coupled with PARTIAL wind element and wind element alone destroyes a small mountain which stretches almost till the closer horizon on panle. raasengan is concentrated power as opposed to explosion.
doesnt matter, try and go by individual consistant feats.otherwise the same problem arises as i described before.
first of all, you shudnt make statements like "PLOW THROUGH ALL NARUTO NINJAS" that is unsupported bias. because you havent proven it. even weaker akatsuki like kisame/diedara have fought bijuu/jinshuuriku which are not only larger than sky scrappers but are also more powerful than a simple zanpakuto and can level areas the size of small forests with singular attacks{even shukaku did}. they pale in comparison to itachi. its admitted that aizen has significant reitsu. but then itachi has enormous chakra. greater than urochimaru/sandaime hokage/jiraya/diedara etc. and the weapons strength has never been shown to Dwarf naruto weapons. plus, naruto character dont USE many special weapons let alone RELY on them. their power doesnt come from zanpakuto. chakra attacks in naruto have plowed through mountains, destroyed football fiield area places in singular attacks, changed landscapes, and whatnot. bring in diedara and his c-3 attack alone{his weakest c- against gaara} created a BLAST{not AFFECTIVE demolition area which causes destruction but the core BLAST} which was larger than 1/4th of a small CITY against gaara. and would destroy the entire sand village{which is the size of a city}. later in his self sacrifice jutsu, he creates a blast which DWARFED small mountain ranges and was over 315 kilometres in area and over five time as tall as it was wide.{again the destruction area is MUCH greater, this was just the core BLAST}.
the 4 tails can create a single chakra blast{one of many} which can penetrate through 4 rashamon gates. so no no amount of reitsu is gonna protect aizen. and remember that sasuke took a c-4 and continued fighting.
it takes time for aizen to locate people, and youve forgotten that kage bunshin each have a portion of the chakra distributed evenly among them. aizen is not gonna be able to find itachi. plus, your merely choosing the version of shaaringan which you see fit. ive already told you that itachi's shaaringan has been proven on panel to work at the level of the soul. the chakra stopping of naruto didnt even work against a normal genjutsu cast by itachi CLONE.there are three different explanations of shaaringan. and itachi has used his shaaringan on beings with incredible chakras like urochimaru and kakashi. tsukiymi works on the soul and is undispelable. aizen doesnt have a prayer{although it is fair to say that NEITHER have shown their true power yet}. sasuke was unable to see the chakras movement in precog BECAUSE he was not powerful enough with his shaaringan and because the chakrawas very powerful and had a MIND OF ITS OWN other tyhan naruto's body on which he was focuding becuse he cud not concentrate on two different attacks from two different uber level foes at the time. after he turned into his form 2 cursed seal he CUD see naruto and countered his attacks.
as far as air superiority goes, it is simply untrue, even naruto could change direction midflight with just his kyuubi CHAKRA in his fight against neiji{look at the frame where neiji throws shuuriken at him and just before they hit midflight, he rushes of in the other direction}, same with chuunin level rock lee who was practically teleporting in air hitting gaara mid flight hundreds of times before he even hit the ground and bounced like a ping pong ball in the air.
also, itachi is MUCH stronger than any1 mentioned yet and he has his shaaringan on CONSISTANTLY if u pay attention in naruto.
I've given you multiple feats on why and how strong Aizen was. The same with speed. My argument is the same as others. It was you that constantly ignored them and have posted deliberately wrong information about Naruto. No matter what you try to bullshit, I will call it.
Your debating skills is ass and you have no credibility in this thread. It's obvious by now, you know nothing about Bleach and are clearly an Itachi fanboy.
lmao. deluded fantasies do not make you credible enough to be a debater let alone, one with authority or intelligence enough to CALL apparent bs.
every point you gave in the beginning i countered. on top of it every feat you gave was trumped by other feats from naruto and every speed feat you gave, you YOURSELF cud not give rational comparison criteria for to judge against naruto feats.
the significant number of posts that you have recently put here include NO comparisons or evidence whatsoever, nor does this one. so i suggest you stop wasting thread space and flaming. and again, my credibility as a poster is not in the least influenced by the insignificant oppinion of an individual, void of logic coeherence and knowhow. join the crybabies of kmc society or sumthin.
to violoent2dope. kisame isnt anywhere as strong as itachi/urochimaru/pein/tobi etc.{not to mention the wierd plant guy who has disappeared all of a sudden}
Let's see. I gave you a feat in which Bleach characters could travel miles at a time in an instant. You didn't counter that. I gave you a feat in which Ichigo, who is slower and not as strong as Aizen, is able to cut up thousands of blades in an instant. You didn't counter that. I gave you a feat in which people in Bleach had enough strength that they could casually cut down buildings. You didn't counter that. I explained numerous examples of why you were wrong. You lied about all that. Citing specific examples in the manga, I proved why Itachi hasn't done shit that puts him on Aizens level of badassitude. You didn't counter that, save a bunch of fanboy speculatons you made up. I even pointed out Itachi's weaknesses and times in which even he was outsmarted by people weaker than him. You didn't get on that. And you're getting on my case for not giving you theoretical/hypothetical data? Something that you haven't given me, legitimately? Uh, right. Pot kettle black, buddy. Pot. Kettle. Black.
And BTW, when I say "counter" I mean legitimate examples that happened in the Naruto manga. Not all that bullshit you spew.
Itachi loses, my ignorant friend. He might have had a chance in a discussion, had it not been a one-sided fanboy defending him.
you were unable to substantiate it was an instant. i asked for validation based on evidence in the manga. you didnt give any. the only person whos actually given an argument for speed based on evidence is akuki. i asked you to substantiate what time frame an INSTANT stood for in the manga but you did not. i asked you to substantiate distance based on evidence, you didnt. in the end youve given NO feat in which bleach characters moved miles in an instant.
on the other hand i have given plenty of feats where zabuza/gate open rock lee and many more have moved similar distances in less than the blink of an eye. stop lying and go back and read your posts and then read mine. countered and done with.
you didnt give the distance he had to travel while doing it, you didnt give the amount of time it took for him to do this. without either of these figures verified, you have no speed estimate against which you can judge against naruto characters. i know for a fact that the scenario your mentioning does NOT take place over the length of miles etc. countered{im merely repeating myself}
good for them. i never said that was untrue. however i did give you several feats on how naruto characters create nuke level and greater damage blast, flames hotter than the core of the sun, destruction of mountains etc while still having more to give and take. countered. naruto destruction>bleach destrtction{as they currently stand on feats}
no u didnt, you tried to answer with humiliating statements having nuthing to do with evidence or logical backing.no examples were cited which cud be put on stats against naruto based on evidence. i substantiated each instant by quoting the event in question. i never lied. its your inability to accept sound logical statement backed by evidence and preferring to call them speculations when infact i stated exactly why i thought it was the way it was based on on panel feats. you NEVER proved that itachi has not done anything, save for the ridiculous example where you said that he was WEAKER than jiraya{which wud be laughed at by any person who knew naruto} whne infact he surpassed his highest jutsu at the time and was explicitly quoted to not be TRYING to start a war or kidnapp naruto when it wasnt necessary.
the only reason your supporting aizen is because your a fanboy impressed by his level of BADASSITUDE, similar to hellsing fanboys claiming he can take on surfer. im sorry, you have proven absolutely nuthing.
weakness? he has never shown weakness other than perhaps being a little tired after using the mangekyo shaaringan thrice in the frame of a few hours. all his feats currently are strength feats where he destroyes the opposition. quote me a few of these non existing WEAKNESSES on panel before you make such silly claims. he has never been outsmarted. if he has, give examples.
lol, says the man who claims itachi has on panel weaknes examples and places where he has been OUTSMARTED when no such instances exist in the manga. i have given feats and evidence to back up my arguments. do yourself a favour and hold on to whatever remnants of dignity you might have left here.
lol, in a thread filled only by bleach fanboys and flamers, that comment hardly has significance. stop bawling you little baby.
I told you.. many times. When Ukitake performed the Shyunpo in front of Ganryusai, he commented "Ah, I see you're able to travel many miles in an instant." In fact, Ukitake did the Shyunpo and came back RIGHT after. There's your instance. It must be nice to live in a world where you only listen to yourself.
wrong. wrong, wrong my igorant friend. Zabuza has never demonstrated superior body movement. Rock Lee, I admit, is damn fast, especially w/his weights off, but he ALSO didn't move on the level that Bleachers do. Your point is full of lies, therefore, not a legitimate counter. Moving on...
Read above. And you don't know shit about Bleach. Don't pretend to think I know nothing about it when you have yet to counter any Bleach feat. All you're doing is arguing for Naruto, without an idea of who the other faction is.
Again... why does ANY of that matter, when all Aizen has to do is blitz him with superior speed? More collateral damage =/= victory.
Let's see. genjutsu affecting the soul? Lies. Manga never stated that. Somebody traveling through countries in an instant? Never stated. Itachi actually being stronger than Jiraiya? Never been proven. Though, to be absolutely HONEST, I do think Itachi is a bit above Jiraiya... unfortunately, that's not relevant. Itachi still wimped out, so whatever on that. What else have you spewed that was blatantly not stated in the manga and/or is just not true? In terms of what was SEEN, Itachi has NOT done as much as Aizen has. That's not my opinion. That's just how it is. If you've seen Bleach, you would agree. Itachi has shown various limits. Aizen... has not.
Everybody here has given you an example of why Bleachers operate on a higher scale than Naruto. You're alone for a reason here -- because you're wrong.
BTW, who ever said Hellsing can take on Silver surfer is pretty damn stupid. SS can travel across, through and around time with his board and has cosmic energy... No way Alucard can possibly take on all that. OTOH, the gap between Itachi and Aizen, while not as big, is still noticable.
Kakashi has outsmarted Itachi in their little skirmish. It involved usage of Kagebunshins. watch the episode. And opposition? What opposition did he destroy that was so great? Let's see... he punked Naruto with his genjutsu... that's not impressive, because Naruto isn't that skilled in combating it in the first place. He owned Kakashi, an artificial Sharigan user with his TRUE Sharingan eyes... something even Kakashi admitted was the worst case scenario. He beat up his little brother... not that impressive. He burned a hole through a stomach... impressive, but not all that useful against Aizen.
He was shown retreating. That's a weakness. He even shows signs of fatigue after using his techniques. If he's as badass as you wank him to be, why isn't he owning Jraiya, Naruto and everybody and just take the Kyuubi? GEE, I wonder.
It's just too fun talking with you. Please make up more BS so we can pick it apart.
just once. and the japanese dub didnt say MILES. furthermore, theres no way to measure INSTANT. specially seeing that every1 is in agreement that it isnt teleportation. nice try
lmao. he instantaneously moved from a position where he was barely visible to narutoparty to between their standing on defence back to back without any1 noticing and without kakashi even blinking. other than that he moved the length of approximately a footbal field to instantaneousy end up on top of his sword as it stuck in a tree right after he THREW it. and he moved at the last instant. this ridiculous post is evidence enough to see that you know NUTHING about naruto. and the second statement is a disproven bias on which no argument can be based. rock lee has been shown on panel to be verifyably faster than most bleachers. i have not lied. stop throwing another tantrum.
way to avoid a point. you know darn well i was countering allegation that bleach destruction>naruto destruction. your doing nuthing but ytwisting the argument. also, that statement is disproven ass aizen never have been shown a verifyable on panel feat which is faster than itachi.
your lying. it was stated by itachi. and ive given extensive evidence of sasuke shaaringan/kyuubi supression and itachi's own words. if your gonna lie, atleast try it with some tact. the first statement is a total and utter lie. there is also the fact that sasuke destroyed the dimension of urochimaru's soul with his shaaringan. stop being idiotic.
its a well known fact that itachi is stronger than the sannin. urochimaru admitted it AND lost to him. travelling through countries was seen in the fight with hidan kakuzu as they had to get to the akatsuki hideout and drop off the money. itachi never ran away. if your not gonna listen to lgic than thats your problem. he STATED that he wasnt there to start a war or fight if he cud avoid it. plus he said he didnt need naruto then. there is also the fact that he surpassed jiraya's strongest jutsu who admitted that he BARELY stopped them from hurting them. also if jiraya is so powerful, then why didnt he try to fight with kisame as he stood in fornt of itachi kicking sasuke's ass. itachi has shown no limits. after using mangekyo techniques 3 times he was a little tired. aizen has shown limits in his unwillingness to engage yamato or avoiding it atleast. he hardly has any feats. the few that are are impressive but dont put him at itachi level.
no, there were others, but they cudnt be bothered anymore. seeing as you rinse and repost old countered arguments again and again as if theyr new. its a cycle of stubborness and a debating tactic of the worst on kmc like JIA and GS, WHOB. all those examples have been countered to one point or another. bleachers currently operate on a lower scale then naruto.
tell that to the fans. its sorta like telling you about naruto feats{and we both know how that turns out}
kakshi "outsmarted" him? . it was itachi CLONE. unable to use his mangekyo shaaringan. a clone that only had 30% of his chakra. and in his own words the original had infinitely more chakra then the clone. it was also at only 30% of his strength level. plus the clone was admitted by both itachi and pain to be a DISTRACTION.
still it genjutsues naruto who CUDNT dispell it by shutting down his chakra circulatory system. and it took the brunt of the entire team and naruto's great raasengan{and a sizeable crater in the ground} to destroy him. plus he cast genjutsu on a naruto that wasnt even looking and he did it just by pointing a finger.
real itachi killed his entire clan, trumped kakashi at the level of the soul, burned through a stomach who cud take teh strongest mystical fire{by a jutsu which burns for a week and burns hotter than the sun}. he has also tuned into raven and teleported AFTER letting sasuke impale him with his extended chidori.
lmao. countered. go up and read. your inability to understand is not a sign of itachi's weakness.
Aizen has the supreme advantage since the top power levels of Bleach is waaaay higher than the top power levels in Naruto.
Though your messing with the Sharingan, and it can see through any genjutsu it's come up against. Aizen's main power is total illusion, something that one might assume is really just not going to work. IF i am right in that prediction, it depends on if Aizen looks Itachi in the eye or not.
p.s When Aizen 'stops' Ichigo's kuroi getsuga with a finger..... What you must remember is all witnesses to that attack are under total illusion, so you can't say Aizen actually stopped the attack.
Anyways, i'm a fan of Naruto not stupid 99%+ chance Aizen Wins
im finding it hard to understand what your asking and WHICH poster yor referring to. those points have both pro itachi and anti itachi arguments. do you want me to PROVE each one or disprove each one.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 3rd, 2007 12:32 AM
. it was itachi CLONE. unable to use his mangekyo shaaringan. a clone that only had 30% of his chakra. and in his own words the original had infinitely more chakra then the clone. it was also at only 30% of his strength level. plus the clone was admitted by both itachi and pain to be a DISTRACTION. 
