Then I salute your space karate prowess. That one time you used a karate kick to stop an earthquake was awesome.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Please point me to the part where i say superman does not have ftl travel speed
Oh I assure you its not just the one. ALL of them are invalid, for different reasons
Examples have also been given which support the wally feat , before and after said feat
again, i dare you to show me the scans thaat have superman saying " i have ftl reflexes"
because i can definitely show the man gauging his own abilities, and posing a specific limitation saying" im slower than light"
this is not a statement some other uninformed character is making. this is superman himself noting his own limitations , supported by feats AND the statements of others
Cool lets just ignore supes fainting from crossing the time barrier a year earlier, and him topping out at a few times the speed of sound going all out vs wally a couple of years later. lets ignore superman getting frozen in time by waverider throughout the 90s, and the wally feat 10 years later after an explicit power up. lets ignore superman taking days to move through a time dilation that does NOT stop jimmy olsens thrown rock , after his post death powerup
lets ignore everything and treat that as an actual feat, at that point in post crisis supes' career?
if he can move about casually in a TIME DILATION of a fraction of a nanosecond, why then does he struggle at all in moving through a measly nanosecond for that braniac feat?
you are simultenously claiming superman can casually overcome a TIME DILATION of a fraction of a nanosecond, but struggle to move in a non time dilated nanosecond
brilliant.
Freddy ....really? you are comparing Freddy " 1/3rd of the power of shazam" freeman to cap?
and supes literally notes his "teeth are rattling out of his head", with the effort of catching freddy
Hardly conclusive proof there being a noticeable speed difference between them
so the part where he notes " i SLOWED down enough to see LIGHT", never happened?
The part where Cm jr notes supes is faster and supes says " thats not true", never happened?
i mean, sure thats a speed comparision right there
Meh, vague observation made by someone else, contradicted by supes' own statements
in any case, stuff like this sits pretty nicely with " they have SIMILAR speed", espescially the adam/jay, supes/jay races
This is hilarious. theres literally NOTHING there to suggest supes is faster
eclipso says he can travel fast. thats just it. theres no comparision whatsoever with billys speed
in any case, moving to a city in an instant, is hardly an impossible feat for a dude who spells out words over the planet between sentences
Scans to show eclipso doesnt amp supermans energy? surely you didnt make this up based on nothing at all?
So basically you are making your own assumptions based on PIS fights wherein possessing a literal solar battery is apparently less harmful than solar matter, and thereby interpreting the same to suit your own character
real conclusive, this
How
Jay having a heart attack certainly helped him to close the unknown gap there
but more on that later
just to be clear, you are simultenously arguing that superman can barely race even with a non amped jay, but absolutely "catch up" with an amped jay and also simultenously make a non amped jay "look like a statue" , all in the same post
so supes is simultenously
1. wildly faster than jay to the point of making him look like a statue
2. as fast as jay, racing evenly with him
3. reasonably faster than jay to the point of "catching up" with an amped jay
nice. full marks for a consistent argument
Not especially no, given that you are ignoring the actual statements and feats and basing this loosely on observations by others
So a random artists interpretation of a fight ( which incidentally also features the likes of diana and karen as "statutes" relative to superman, written by the very writer who claimed diana had faster reflexes than supes), allows you to ignore the very ending of the story where Jay is specifically identified from the future as the fastest member in either group, to which he replies / shows that PG and supes have comparable speed?
Yeah you did a great job with THAT argument
Im saying superman did not react in EXACTLY a nanosecond, because of him saying " about a nanosecond", and then noting that his timing was a bit off
given his history of being unable to react at ftl speeds, and his timing being off, id say it was a little more than a nanosecond
oh and as for the prof zoom feat, that falls under the same category as " i outreacted wally west in sacrifice" for supes, ie , contradicted by their own independent feats and the fact that barry left him in the dust/ even mind controlled and LETTING for supes to catch him, casually outraced him for a while with a smile as supes busted a gut just to keep up
Condescension is always a great way to begin a debate
So...absolutely nothing to do with a monthly then. well that at least answers the question
oh and i did "look it up". its listed as an Elseworlds
Correct . thats the one from the actual canon comics
Of course not. he absolutely did meet completely different zods in those stories and a completely different, unrelated version after an explicit reboot
on the other hand both the kingdom, and thy kingdom come follow on explicitly from the events of kingdom come, and only one of them is part of an actual storyline running through canon comics.
So ....an alternate future that never happened, at best
so why do you feel this should be counted as a feat for mainstream supes, given absolutely zero references to it , during the meeting between supes and KC Supes in thy kingdom come?
No but lets reverse this. do you think superman was throwing about " my timing was a bit off" for "shits and giggles?" no? what about " im not FTL!"
man the guy must have been in a desperate need of a chuckle with the lives of two people at stake
or do only those feats you dont like, get dismissed as " shits and giggles"?
so no. what im actually saying is what superman is actually saying. he gave himself ABOUT a nanosecond, and his timing was a little off. which , coupled with his history makes it a great feat for him, just not an EXACT nanosecond feat, or a FTL reaction feat
Heh. " a nanosecond passes." " Im a nanosecond ahead of you". "about a nanosecond"
the definition of iron clad , unquestionable feats, arent they?
Ill take that as a compliment, given the expertise youve been showing in the concept of " wrong" in this thread
Seriously? i told you there was nothing like what you said there
here's their first meeting in full
Zod: Hello Kal el....superman. or should i call you clark kent?
we have obtained glimpses into your life on this primitive planet for decades and yet ive never understood your motives for self degradation
your father would be disgraced to discover you masquerading as one of these sub kryptonians. youve embraced their culture and abandoned your own
Superman:...general zod?
zod: you know of me, kal el?
S: ive studied kryptons history. you are wearing prison uniforms.you and your friend are criminals who were exiled to the phantom zone
Z: we are not criminals!"
where from, exactly in this exchange, are you getting " Ive never met a zod before?"
or, how does this in any way contradict OWAW/ for tomorrow, and those completely different versions?
ill tell you why. both thy kingdom come and the kingdom follow on explicitly from the events of the elseworlds kingdom come. only of them happens in canon comics
the zod from last son has no relation to OWAW or For Tomorrow, or even the bryne version. it contradicts / clashes with none of those versions. we dont HAVE to choose last son or OWAW as exactly one of two canon stories
but the KC sequels vary explicitly from each other. only one of these versions is canonically possible. hence im going with the jsa canon version
Which works just fine given the whole "torture/ fake kill supes for 500 years" story
and the earth 22 superman is explicitly the same guy from the end of kingdom come
No
Given that a fair bit of that series was spent mucking about in alt universes at a time alt universes were not supposed to exist in dc continuity.....mmmm
oh, and that superman was loosely based on the kc version at best,
Thats actually a very vague reference but anyway, issue no?
Well the events of both kingdom come and the kingdom would totally make dc one million non canon
as it is, it was a tempora anomaly, that never came to pass, much like waverider observing the various alt universe versions of supes through the 90s and hence non canon
Well i tried.
one last time.
only one of the two versions can possibly be canon without contradicting the other, as opposed to those other examples
Or did supermAn react late?
scans that say he released it EARLIER?
what exactly are you basing this on, other than you interpreting " my timing was a bit off" to mean the boy reacted earlier
why or why would i not be wrong in saying " superman reacted late", give what the expression my " timing was off" could mean?
Scans of the silver surfer proclaiming his own speed to be slower than light?
come on, i dare you
No
I Actually post more often on comicvine, but whatever helps you deal with loss
....
ok ill explain it in terms of the one character you do know about
superman in seagles run, searches for cir el at " near lightspeed". that by itself does not mean superman is LIMITED to the speed of light. thats him making a statement about his speed, not placing a limit
however. when superman explicitly places himself below lightspeed in JLA, when Dr light explicitly notes that superman is below lightspeed in vol 2, that , coupled with a history of similar limitations , makes him slower than light.
if you manage to show me scans of say silver surfer or post 2000 wally explicitly saying they cannot cross the speed of light, THEN id agree that they are not FTL, if they themselves gauge themselves as slower than light beings
so unless we actually see a speedster screaming " im not FTL", there is no reason to discredit their feats or provide them FTL status if they do have the feats
superman noting hes specifically under lightspeed casts his feats in an unfavourable light, and given most of them are not clear cut feats certainly doesnt help, nor him fainting through time travel, getting blitzed by people who dont fee the need to say " im slower than light", only running even with similar sublight speedsters etc only adds to this case
theres a long list of things as already noted, but superman earmarking himself as sublight is certainly one of the main factors
Provided they dont have contradictory feats, sure
unfortunately superman has a lot of contradictory stuff to go against his couple of clear cut feats
which takes ftl speeds to achieve. as noted by supes himself.
" ....Fast enough to exceed the speed of light! fast enough to cross the time barrier under his own power!
it doesnt take a giant intellect to guess thats just what hes PREPARING to do now. got to get to him before he reaches FULL SPEED.."
its clear from the dialogue that FTL speed was what facilitated the time travel in the first place, given DCs history of that being a pre requisite for the same and supermans own statements to the effect
nothing like ftl speed and time travel being two separate things, like you are suggesting. crossing the speed of light was what made him faint period.
When.
Yea...ftl speed is a pre requisite for time travel, not vice versa
hence the various flying bricks have great travel speed feats, without moving through time
on the other hand, no one has moved through time on speed alone without crossing the lightspeed barrier to the point of entire arcs being devoted to the same, where its specifically mentioned as the all important criterion ( zero hour, the js arc where jay moved baack to the future from ancient egypt, etc)
No but apparently i did
Er no..?
Time stops. the editor tells us its the same effect from superman 61
superman 61, where superman was frozen in time, till waverider released him
and here waverider starts off by not having him frozen in time
wheres the inconsistency, beyond you wildly clutching at straws that dont exist in the first place?
nowhere in the comic does it say that supes is using his speed to overcome the effect. its heavily implied that waverider is allowing him to move, with the reference to the previous issue where er....waverider allowed him to move
Scans of waverider "doesnt wanting him to move?"
come on, i dare you. surely, this cant be (yet) another thing you made up, can it?
heck just answer this. later in the same issue, when supes is trapped in a time stasis, and explicitly notes " cant move..." , who was the dude who allowed him to move? hint: the name starts with "wave" and ends with "rider'
So you are now calling your own handpicked example, a low showing now.heh
He certaintly wrote supergirl moving at 99% the speed of light in space, just as one example
well that certainly ignores the time mcduffie specified his reactions as being slower than light or seagle had him, with a tremendous effort only approach the speed of light
Thats because he IS ftl. his maximum speed is way beyond the speed of light
its just that he cannot react at these speeds. sure, he can fly through space at a million times lightspeed, where i dunno the chances of colliding with even our solar systems asteroid field are .....one in a billion , but no way does that translate to actual ftl reflexes
think of it as a pilot flying an aircraft, at i dunno the speed of sound or something. that in no way implies that the pilot could i dunno...write a letter at the speed of sound.
but thousands of miles of empty space? sure he could fly at that speed, and heck even avoid something in his path, if he gets a radar warning or whatever
something a guy with microscopic/telescopic vision/ super hearing really has no problems with
So lets check the words again from superman 123
" faster than light...
a BLAST of fierce surging energy is FIRED"
we see a blast leaving his hands
we see a blast, and not a body moving towards the guy
we see the blast drop him in the river, with the buildings in the background
we see superman still among the buildings
are seriously saying now that supes FIRED himself as a blast?
No. but firing energy blasts is comparable enough
I see that was too difficult for you to understand
so in simple words
you claimed you were going to show instances of surfer noting his own speed to be slower than light
what you actually posted, is nothing like your claim
or to put it even more clearly
surfer claiming he cant escape a black hole ,in no way translates to him being slower than light
No its dubious because it contradicts his own estimation of his own abilities, and his showings throughout his career
just like , to pick your favourite character, surfer beating two galactus level beings by manipulating the energies of the big bang itself, is dubious considering his history of showings and his own admissions about the limitations of his power in comparison to galactus
nope.
When you are ignoring the dozens of examples provided and producing feats from non canon comics, or flat out posting scans that contradict the very things you say, id say im more than justified on my stand on the matter
Heh ...flying through space from the earth to the moon translates to reaction speed now.Not to mention a statement contradicted by actual feats
he accepted it
Sure she does
and while we are talking about "waay out there feats" , that contradict consistent feats over decades, diana deflecting the shards that crossed the universe in moments is pretty ridculously above supes' feats
i dont really care for such feats, but hey everything goes apparently
So lets see
you talk about batmans comments on their speeds
i say i dont really care for them
you say they are totally legit and proceed to babble on how superman totally rocked amazo and how this was a more powerful version or whatever
i said no, amazo was reaally inconsistent in the arc, and supes was one of the first to go down
you respond with " you are f***ing wrong!"
i mean...seriously?
The issue that ended with barry noting he LET him catch him?
the issue where Barry searched the continent five times looking for superman to catch him and help him?
great example
Supes sure caught him off panel at a time wally could move only in a fixed path and couldnt change this path, something diana used to beat him an issue laater
havent read titans 10, but even assuming this was an actually feasible feat for a change, considering stuff that wildly contradicts it , conisistently, since the 2000s from their respective feats to wally outracing HV to supes struggling with all his might to catch up with a depowered wally, im not sure what argument you are putting forward here other than " PIS counts cuz Superbro!"
Heh. non canon rubbish. dubious twisting of statements rather than actual feats. scans that contradict your own claims. references with context omitted.
sure youre doing a great job so far
I actually post on the vine more often but hey, the conspiracy theories must sure help with the pain of dealing with utter defeat
Where is the elseworld logo kid?
So, its canon now. Move along.
So he does he meet KC Superman in Kingdom and Superman/Batman and THEN in JSA after a reboot.
And that's not after a reboot? After all, DC one million referenced Kingdom, so both must be non canon, right?
Gog traveled to main timeline to kill Captain Atom when that feat happened. Its not in the future.
Because that's not why a comic is considered non canon because some later story fails to reference it. You are pulling a very desperate maneuver here.
What's that has to do with anything? Under Waid anybody other than Flash is slower than light.
Sure thing. Lets just speculate and thus deny a feat.
I don't disregard any feat.
So basically "I deny this feat, so it never happened". Cool story bro.
Yep. Considering they are from someone who knows what he is talking about.
Take it however you want, you're still just wrong.
From the look of confusion over him and the fact that he never references that he has met anyone Zod before. The fact that he had to learn Zod from history books when he had actually met Zod in Superman 215 doesn't tell you that this was the first time he met Zod?
Because Superman doesn't has to learn of Zod from history books.
Both of them happened in canon comics, you silly goose. Just because you declare one to be non canon doesn't mean its non canon.
Haha, this is pure gold. Have you even any idea what you are talking about?
Not really. But all this mental gymnastic just to invalid one feat? My, my, aren't we desperate here.
Which never happened due to the fact that the older Gog erased that timeline.
Not really. He is from a parallel universe which resembles Kingdom Come because Mr. Mind ate a bit of its history in 52. Kingdom Come is shown to be a future of dcu in JSA 80 and JLA generation lost.
Great comeback.
And the same series introduced Supergirl? Are you ****ing serious right now?
Hahaha, sure thing buddy. But why didn't Superman say in Thy Kingdom come "Hey I fought someone like you a few years ago in Batcave?"
DC one million 2.
Now everything is non canon. Good going kid, soon you'll turn entire post crisis history non canon.
And so everything is non canon now? Because I can cite at least a dozen monthly comics referring DC one million which would make them non canon IYO. Thus rendering everything connected to them non canon. Thus everything would become non canon.
That's not what happened. You are essentially saying Superman had no idea of what he was talking about.
The very next scan depicts it going off before Superman could go through. Its not enough to discredit the whole feat.
The comic?
Get a grip dude. That was just a jumble of words.
I posted them already.
Great comeback again.
Ooh, that shattered me y'know.
Why not? Superman limits himself on earth due to collateral damage he causes on earth at that speed. Later in the very same arc, Surfer got nearly killed because he couldn't escape a black hole.
So two instances makes him slower than light and they overweigh everything else?
No, it takes more than faster than light speed. It takes speed enough to cross the time barrier.
Two distinct things. Superman has gone FTL numerous times. He can't time travel by them.
And it takes place in an era where hyperspace and FTL travel hurt Superman badly. Good thing he got amped later.
Then why doesn't Superman goes in time when he crosses the solar system or the galaxy?
pquote]nothing like ftl speed and time travel being two separate things, like you are suggesting. crossing the speed of light was what made him faint period.[/quote] Sure thing bro. Nothing like superman himself noting that it was time travel which made him so weak can get in your way.
In his own series, of course.
Why not?
So why is Superman singled out?
Except The Ray. And Jay moved through time by going into speed force, which is beyond lightspeed and time barrier.
You only hit your head while you were a baby.
That's a pretty neat fanfiction. The fact that Waverider didn't know that Superman was there and he inteneded nobody to notice him apparently flew over your head.
Your fanfiction doesn't counts as a fact kiddo.
Where is it implied kid? And later in the same comic, Superman moved in a sphere in which time didn't even exist. He should've been frozen there too, right?
You can't read, can you? Superman directly says that "Only he is moving as if the time has stopped." That's not due to his speed? What next?
Those were stasis beams. You'll note that for someone frozen in time, Superman speaks up very nicely.
Da ****?
That's not FTL. Better luck next time kid.
Or when he had him traverse lightyears in less than three hours in Action Comics 847.
Ok? That's a little bit of progress.
And back to square one. We'll get you there kid.
So Superman pilots his own body? That's just a great analogy.
So just random theories? How did he fight wonder woman from earth to sun and back in less than two minutes then?
Haha, in the vacuum of space?
That's after the narration explicitly notes that he is going that fast. Read the previous page which I posted kiddo.
Haha, are you blind or what?
And the fact that its based on absolutely nothing and Barry couldn't stop himself at all is contradictory in itself. I mean if he was so much in control that he let something happen, why not just stop yourself Barry?
When Superman had no idea of Barry in that condition? Yeah, great example dude.
You have no idea of what you are talking about. He was going all out in a fixed path. Superman raced him and caught him. Diana anticipated him and struck him. That's just two far different examples.
Yeah, because Superman isn't allowed to have high end feats. And when all else fails, scream PIS.
And all you did was shake your head in denial at every superman feat. Good job at making a fool out of yourself.
You are doing a better job though. Of looking like a lowballer.
Haha, the bitter tears finally let through. Go back to where you come from boy, unless you want some more asskicking.
no...i dont actually want any more of that. i was debating whether or not to actually reply to some of the crazy mental gymnastics going on here, and this is pretty much going to be my last exchange on the matter with you
most of these desperate monosyllabic non- responses boil down to inane, puerile insuts and " so? I dont care"s that expose you for the 14 year old superman nuthugger that you are, and dont bear responding to. this is a public forum, and your twisting of your own scans and statements are obvious to all..
but...
surfer struggling to escape from a black hole has nothing whatsoever on panel to indicate a limitation or flat out denial of his own speed, beyond inferences made by you
surfer needing novas help to cross the time barrier contradicts his earlier feats, and comes more than decade after he crossed time multiple times on his own, in the very series that started with him going FTL to rescue Nova. theres no indication whatsoever , that he hadnt already crossed the speed of light before reaching time travel speeds, and most important of all, this isnt a flat out denial of ftl reactions
ex- jay needing to steal speed to cross the time barrier does not by itself, discount his reflexes, its him saying specifically " im slower than light", that contradicts the other stuff
FTL speed is a requirement for time travel. Time travel is not a requirement for FTL speeds
all feats count as long as they are not flat out denials. which pretty much brings us to the issue of canonicity of the kingdom.
its discounted solely for specifically contradicting the ending of another canon story when both branch off from the same story
superman meeting KC supes in the kingdom and batman/ superman and then again, thy kingdom come does not simultaneously hold unlike the Zod stuff because each gives a variant version of the ending of the same story as opposed to something as trivial as " i used to know a totally different guy named Zod" NOT being stated and " hey youre the kryptonian general zod "being stated
one million referenced a possible alternate future , the kingdom version, that never came to pass, to the point of directly being contradicted by later stories from something as casual as Damien and the Ibn guy to the one million future itself as opposed to an alternate universe version that ran through canon comics
the story is not non canon because "they fail to reference it", just like OWAW is not non canon because supes " fails to reference it". it is non canon because it contradicts post crisis continiuity massively to the point of having a totally different ending to the version of the same story that appeared in mainstream post crisis continuity
" From the look of confusion on his face( which BTW does not actually exist in the comics", is not the same as an actual denial or something that massively contradicts post crisis continuity, and seriously " look of confusion on his face " is just a classic example of your ever increasing desperation in this thread
and yes its an alternate universe version, which is what makes it canon, as opposed to the vastly contradicted alternate future version
batman/superman series sure introduced supergirl before proceeding to divert along some....interesting pathways
but sure its canon, given it doesnt wildly contradict post crisis history
just like surfers feats count. just like OWAW counts. as long as its not a flat out denial., its fine
other than this... mmm
Jay specifically needed to steal speed to cross the lightspeed barrier and enter the speed force
id like the ray scan and i asked for the issue no for the other scan and not the one million scan
lightray blitzing the crap out of him in the action comics legends tie in ( 585 iirc) certainly supports the claim, which was BTW confirmed by Metron in superman 128
also, barry couldnt stop moving. so he did the next best thing, which is find superman, run around him and LET him catch him, as noted by Barry in the very issue
the rest is just you shooting yourself in the foot, contradicting your own statements, coming up with petty monosyllabic non-responses and insults instead of an actual argument, distorting or in cases, falt out ignoring your own scans and feats, as is pretty much obvious to all
everyone can see the scans posted and arguments made, and can judge for themselves
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