Windu was beaten by Dooku, at the very least, a few years before TPM. Given that Mace was the youngest Council member in Jedi history, I believe, I'm pretty sure that his raw power and progression exceeds Dooku's.
Furthermore, factor in Windu's Shatterpoint ability (which Anakin does not possess - and cannot contend with) as well as Vaapad's unpredictability and specialty against Dark Side users, it is unlikely that Anakin can beat him as of RotS.
Quit getting so defensive, Ac. Pretending to be Mr. Barry Badass does nothing for you.
a. Dooku attacked Yoda with the Force four times, I believe. Or five. And how many times did Yoda reciprocate? Once. Every other time, he simply tossed the debris away - instead of throwing it or attacking back.
b. Dooku was Yoda's apprentice of many years. As we have seen, in most cases - connections like that are hard to break. And, as you brought up, Yoda attempted to turn Dooku back from the Dark Side on Vjun.
If he really wanted to kill Dooku, he wouldn't have bothered.
c. If he really wanted to kill Dooku, he would have let Anakin and Obi-Wan be crushed, and would have continued the fight. Just like Mace laments in Shatterpoint tjat he did not kill Dooku when he had the chance (on Geonosis) due to their former friendship, it is highly possible that Yoda felt the same.
As we know from the RotS novelization, Jedi are willing to sacrifice one another for the greater cause.
"A little Dark Side"? Please. Go read Dark Rendezvous again. Vjun was steeped in the Dark Side. And, for the final time, quit getting so defensive. Pretending to be a hardcore, badass debator doesn't have any effect on me. Sooner or later, you're going to get reported.
However, Yoda carries a bit of the Dark Side with him, and it is testament to his power that he is able to perform like that.
And, for your information, there was only a single spot on Dagobah that was a nexus of Dark Side energies. That was the cave. And Yoda used it to hide his presence from Palpatine and the Empire. He didn't overcome it or stop it.
.
Wrong. The Magnaguards pushed Mace into the pit.
Mace: "You think these droids can stop me?"
Dooku: "No, but they can keep you distracted long enough."
Then, they push him into a pit.
Wikipedia is only a source when its sources are accurate.
Once again. Calm down. You thinking yourself to be Mr. Barry Badass is irrelevent. No one cares; especially me. Keep it up, you'll get reported.
I have to go with Mace and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan beat Anakin individually, and Mace beat Sidious individually. however, if Anakin doesn't lose his head, then maybe the opposition has a chance. say Sidious uses Force Lightning to put Kenobi out of action temporarily, and Anakin and Sidious team up on Windu, the outcome may be different.
PS. I'm new at this. Just tell me to shut up if you want.
As for the Shatterpoint ability, I can't comment on since Im not fully familar with it, Vaapad however is what flirting with the Dark Side and controling yourself and using it top deliver unpredicatble strikes, Anakin displays the first in his Dooku duel, as for unpredicabilty, Dooku beat the style and showed it was not invincible. Anakin could do the same for the sheer fact he massacred Dooku. It'd undoubtable come down to who has the more Raw power as with the two people, Mace and Anakin both enjoy fighting, both use the DS while fighting Anakin much more so, both were expert saber duelists, It would be who has the more Raw power with the force and thats Anakin.
Well Dooku ran before we got a chance to see that now didn't he, You can't prove he was going lightly on Dooku, since the only evidence you have is "Well if he wanted to chase Dooku he would'ev just let Obi Wan and Anakin die, which is completely OOC for Yoda, Yoda who regards all the Jedi as his children and loves them wouldn't sacrifce one for Dooku.
When? And was it Yoda?
"OMG stop getting an attitude with me. Stop trying to be a badass!"/sarcasm/ You just did the same thing. And quite frankly Im now starting to get annoyed with you whining, No one is pretending to be anything, Im sorry if you percive taking an aggressive stance (as I do with every debate) as trying to be a "bad ass" and a "cool debator" (oxymoron lol) But this is something you need to learn how to tell the difference between it has no abring on me. And "a little DS" was obviously not meant to be taken as a serious point, the DS didn't bother him no matter what the planet.
Information I was given by Lightsanke said different, however I will confim it to be true or untrue
Wrong. I didn't say Dooku pushed him into the pit I said he pushed him BACK to the pit, he beat him in the duel plain and simple, and left since he was retreating.
Reported for what? Being aggressive? Dont think thats qualification for being reported, I didn't flame you at all, so I really dont see what you keep complaining about. I never claimed nor said to be "Mr Barry Badass" that is all your poor perception, and I personally don't care. Im going to keep arguing the same way I've been in the past and if a mod finds that being aggressive in a debate is grounds for being reported, I'd leave this forum.
Escape you need to learn that everyone who doesn't argue with placid neutrality isn't getting an attitude with you, if anything your the one who's getting defensive taking offense at arguments that contain no insults directed at you what so ever, I've seen you post this "Stop getting defensive" many times now, and let me tell you an Aggressive stance =/= Insulting.
As far as I can see, Escape is and has always been neutral, and it's you're the one who's getting defensive and angry. I'd cut it out if I were you, unless you want to be reported.
Actually no, I never insulted him, I never flammed him. Agressive =/= Insulting. You should know this as you do the same things. Agian is a aggressvie stance is grounds for reporting then I'd leave this forum, thats how I argue and it wont change. Had I been angry and or frustrated I would have flammed him, or quit, I wouldn't be needlessly explaining my sefl right now.
Clear-minded Anakin could beat Obi-Wan pretty easily in lightsaber or The Force. If he's pissed-off to the extent he was on Mustafar, it will probably turn out the same way. And if Palpatine uses The Force on Mace...he's dead. So, Palps just has to avoid pure swordplay and he can beat Mace solidly and Anakin has to keep a cool head. Anakina nd Palps only lost due to circumstance.
__________________ "No, when Luke uses anger he turns into Stevie Wonder at batting practice."
In the novelization Palpatine tries pushes Mace, but he pushes back mid-jump/attack, and all that really happened was he went off a little bit. Good luck with Anakin being cool-headed. He wasn't even cool-headed when he was a Jedi.
__________________
"Today was good. Today was fun. Tomorrow is another one." -Dr. Seuss
Well, I mean more how he beat Dooku. He had cold fury powering him and he tapped into the dark side but didn't let it consume him. Dooku mentions this in...either the novelization or it was probably Labyrinth of Evil. That he and Sidious taught anger and rage but never dispassion. Anger and rage unchecked consumes a person and makes them do things like Anakin did against Obi-Wan. Calm, in-control darkness, as demonstrated supremely by Sidious and to a lesser extent by Dooku himself, can be a truly powerful weapon. Anakin used cold anger to beat Dooku. His anger exploded into a fiery hate and mass when he fought Obi-Wan and it ended with him having no legs.
And Sidious can do a lot more than Force Push...
__________________ "No, when Luke uses anger he turns into Stevie Wonder at batting practice."
Well, I personally don't like you very much and happen to think your a not so hot debator....a same sentiment I don't share with pretty much EVERYONE else on this forum, your special
And I find it funny how Im being critized for using shit and pretty much every thread I've seen on this forum has something saying "Bullshit" "No thats shit" "Get that shit out of here" "BS". Now this IS some BS.
Shatterpoint is an innate ability that allows Mace Windu to see the concrete weaknesses of situations and individuals. It is what enabled Windu to defeat Sidious in lightsaber combat, though Sidious is his equal in swordsmanship.
There is no counter for it, and despite his awesome raw connection to the Force, Anakin would be suseptible to it.
Vaapad allows the user to channel Dark Side strengths into advantages for themselves. It allowed Mace to handle Palpatine's immense Force speed (which was superior to his), according to the RotS novelization. If Anakin attempts to use the Dark Side, it is highly possible that he may fall victim to it. Afterall, if it affected someone like Palpatine, who mastered the Dark Side and was far more skilled in such an area than Anakin, who's to say it wouldn't affect Anakin?
Go back and read my argument, Ac. Yoda was obviously less willing to fight than Dooku was. Dooku went on the offensive during their little "Force brawl, and Yoda only attacked him once - and it was the final salvo of the fight. Also, Dooku initiated the saber fight first, as well.
And, you said it yourself. In most cases, Yoda regards the Jedi as his friends, companions, and family. Why is it so difficult to believe that he would not feel this way about Count Dooku, his former protege, apprentice, and close friend?
Especially given the events of Dark Rendezvous. Maybe now it's sunk in.
Yes, in fact, it was.
Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda had a discussion after Anakin killed Dooku. Obi-Wan said that if he had to sacrifice Yoda to make the war end one day sooner, he said that he wouldn't hesitate to do it. Yoda agreed, and said that he would do the same to any other Jedi, too.
I couldn't care less. Aggressive debators tend to look idiotic when their points are beaten. Much more so than neutral people. A little humility and patience would do you some good.
That is your problem. The cave was the Dark Side-centered area. The Dark Side energy remained their from when Yoda battled a Dark Jedi in that spot, and where he died (the cave) continued to thrive with his aura.
Yoda shielded his presence by making his hut close to the Dark cave, allowing him to be undetected from Palpatine.
Pardon, but didn't you say, earlier, that you haven't seen the comic? I have. The fight ended in a stalemate. Mace wasn't disarmed, or beaten. Count Dooku allowed his henchmen to interrupt the fight.
1. Ok, I just re read the Palpy and Mace duel and I can say it was NOT his Shatterpoint ability that let him beat Sidious, he does use the ability in the duel yes but its to see Sidious's future...
"Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadows's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and now--And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed open doorway."
"He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and he once again gave himself to Vaapad."
Thats NOT using the Shatterpoint to beat Sidious, and anything that remotely resmbles that is when he jumps toward the window and let the rain in, thats strategic manuvering, NOT the force.
2. Anakin wouldn't need to counter it since it doesn't adverlsy affect him in the duel.
3. Again no, it allowed him to handle his speed, yes but it didn't beat him, not at all, Sidious kept coming. Which especially since as what Anakin showed against Dooku he would too keep coming
"Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its force-powered speed into a FORCE POWERED GRIP on the slippery permacrete"
Thats how Mace beat Palpatine, it wasn't through Vaapad or his Shatterpoint, it was through strtegic manuveirng and Palpatine not wanting too fall on his ass, because of the tremoundous amounts of speed he was unleashing.
Now, that thats clear, simply channeling back energy and seeing the future can't save him from Anakins cold furry, just like all the skill in the universe couldn't save Dooku. This is all Im arguing is that this Anakin, not his other moods in ROTS would beat Mace. Because when Anakin is thinking like this for his opponet force abilities become irrelavent, years of masterly become irrelevant and only serve to prolong the inevitable, Anakin killing someone.
This entire part of the discussion is irrelevant since I already conceded that Yoda would beat Anakin. There's no longer a point to argue this.
This was after all the Jedi had seen the hell the Clone Wars had taken the Order through, this was after the fact that the Jedi numbers were quickly dwendiling, this was after the fact that Jedi were no longer keepers of peace bu Generals and leaders of war. Its pretty safe to assume Yoda just as many of the other Jedi has been disillusioned by the war that Palpatine brought, Yoda a surmise would not have acted in the same way a few years prior to the wars.
This is how I argue it wont change.
Ok.
No, I didn't say that, I said, I didn't have it on hand, I have seen the comic I in fact own it but I don't have it with me. THe fight ended with Dooku retreating because he was in the middle of you know retreating from the city, he had outmaneuvered and beaten Mace back to the It where his guards took over. Wookie agrees with me, You have no source currently but what your saying and unless you post a pic, what your saying is wrong.
Oct 30th, 2006 01:56 AM
