Makashi vs. Exar's double-bladed awesomeness and Vapaad master vs. Mr Orbalisk.
Tough. I wanna say the PT's take it though.
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Kun AFBs (amulet ****ing beams) Dooku into oblivion, then Windu has an autoscopy if Bane takes too long to kill him.
With or without his gauntlet, Kun's ancient techniques and being more powerful would beat either of the PT duo all-out. As a duelist - he is a genius; creating & mastering the double-bladed lightsaber within six months is proof of his technical prowess and his stalemate against Ulic indicates his applied skill. He'd win against Dooku blade-to-blade, but he'd probably lose to Windu's Vaapad.
Bane could take down Mace or Dooku too since anything goes.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
So, we assume Mr. 'Total arrogance' is going to randomly bust out the amulet blasts when he's never done so in any other scenario before. Can we say 'out of character?'
Moreover, how exactly is Dooku going to sit back, twiddling his thumbs while Exar puts distance between them, raises his arm and then fires? Exar tries that and he's liable to be missing an arm.
Yeah, that's totally proof of his technical prowess being above Mace or Dooku, two of the finest duelists who ever lived.
As a duelist, he's a 'genius' because he might have created the DBL? Especially when Jedi vs. Sith has thrown that into doubt? And while he may be more powerful in the Force, if he engages the other other in a duel?
Kas'im: One who is more skilled with a lightsaber can defeat an opponent who is more powerful in the Force.
Either Dooku or Mace could take on Exar in a straight saber fight.
Evidence he'd beat the ultimate master of Makashi blade to blade?
Mace is fully capable of handling Bane in a duel. He's even more capable of handling Exar.
I gotta say Advent, that was... unusually strange to hear from you.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Err, so then isn't it OOC for Sidious to use a Force Storm in a fight because he only did so once? The fact is Kun never had any opponents worthy of being AFB'd besides Ulic who he dueled for a whole...1 1/2 pages before being interrupted.
"Mr. Total Arrogance"? Nein, Lightsnake. In fact, Kun has demonstrated quite the opposite, such as when he warned Ulic against attacking Coruscant even though Ulic just amassed great military strength and at his demise, he states that he "can't fight the combined might of all the Jedi" and chooses to release his spirit. I remember you put up an argument that Kun could have battled back against the Jedi, that he chose not to suggests he is not cocky; only confident.
I always thought they started out with distance; even so it's as simple as when Dooku pulls Force manuevers in close combat with Anakin & Kenobi fighting two-on-one!
Regardless, Kun doesn't need to use his amulets; he is stacked with aces up his sleeve.
1. I didn't say his technical talent was actually greater, only that it is -at least- a match for Windu's or Dooku's.
2. Both took years to master a form with a formal instructor. Kun mastered his own form by himself within six months if we believe Jedi vs. Sith. The double-bladed lightsaber is also consistently stated to be harder to master than a single blade even with a teacher. All-in-all, this speaks volumes for him & certainly puts him on level with the greatest of PT duelists.
So you admit Anoon does beat Yoda finally?
Take him on, yes. Take him down, no. They are all very close saber-wise, but when you consider Kun's powers, I don't see either coming out alive. He has a lot of offensive techniques that are completely alien to both of them: spirit-ripping, Sith magic, incineration from the inside-out, etc.
Physically, Kun holds the same advantage Anakin did. His lightsaber style is also going to be completely foreign to Dooku and coupled with his saber's dual-phasing ability (he can throw him off balance by adjusting the intensity of his blade) this will create a huge advantage.
In actual skill, his stalemate of the man who fended off an experienced Cathar Jedi while cut off from the Force speaks for itself. It'd be a tough duel, still Kun would win - where's the proof Dooku would?
Bane could -at bare minimum- hold Windu off for a long time, Kun aids FTW.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
If you can find me an instance of me making Palpatine using a Force Storm on individuals a crux of my argument...
And let's hear why, exactly, he didn't blast Ulic from the start. And number of panels hardly equals time seen dueling. The moment Exar 'can't claim an advantage' against the other 'master swordsman,' why isn't his arm raised and why isn't he blasting away?
In all of his personal fights, Kun is just that arrogant. In Ulic's case, he had a plan and Ulic was going against it. And 'against all the Jedi?' Well, you'd have a point, save for him immediately rushing off and using a ritual that he didn't fully understand that trapped himself in a temple for the next millenia.
Are you trying to argue with a straight face Kun isn't insanely arrogant? He's just not stupid.
Look at his general attitude towards almost anything. Vodo, Ood, Sylvar...arrogance is one of the things that sent Kun into the Dark Side.
Dooku's combat experience exceeds Kun's by a huge amount. and why is Kun going to do this from the start rather than taking out his saber and engaging like he always does? And raising one's arm with a Sith artifact, needing to lower the lightsaber hand in the middle of a close range combat against enemies like Dooku and Mace?
It doesn't strike me as a good strategy. More 'utterly suicidal.'
then it's a good thing for Dooku and Mace they have the jokers up their own.
he's demonstrated what to give him that credit? Giveeither a great fight, sure. But 'at least' a match? Mace Windu logically outclasses him.
He was already a saber prodigy. And what's this about his 'own form?' I'm frankly sick of this 'own form' nonsense. At no point, in the entire mythos, is anyone-ANYONE- with a DBL, from Kas'im to Darth Maul to Sarro Xaj stated to use anything resembling a 'unique form' with their DBLs. You use existing forms in a different style with a double bladed saber and that's it and if you want to talk about how different and special Kun's blade is? Let's see some evidence, because we see him swing it all of three times and in the only single one of those where the position of his hands can be seen, he's gripping it with both of them.
There is nothing to suggest or hint that Kun has created or used a 'unique form' rather than a pre-existing one with his saber.
It took Bane all of a few months to learn how to utterly nullify every single form and style and maneuver with the DBL from Kas'im of all people.
We also know Dooku to be a 'legendary' saber instructor, a master of most, if not all the forms given that he teaches them to Grievous...we have Mace, who invented his own form to complete Form VII and
It'd be possible in some scenarios, though Yoda'd likely still take him.
Oh, right. And he's demonstrated either them in an on the fly combat scenario when his saber is out when? The spirit ripping required the help of Kyp Durron and Luke totally caught in the worst scenario.
Let's see him try these on someone head on. Capable of defense. On master level like Mace and Dooku, two Jedi of extraordinary power who aren't doubleteamed, caught off guard Jedi or impulsive apprentices or Aleema. The difference? Dooku and Mace can defend themselves. Unless you want to argue that a 'surprised, double teamed from two fronts' Luke or Gantoris have even the fraction of defensive force ability that Mace or Dooku will have.
Oh, yes, they can and possibly will kill him. Neither is known for letting up in a saber match and given that both will be on the defensive with Force abilities and probably not going to lean back while Kun gathers up the power to unleash an attack, Kun needs to get by on his saber skills.
Oh, yeah, it's not like Dooku's usage of a curved hilt isn't going to have an advantage-which we know from the Bane duology, it does give the user an advantage. and when will Kun's 'style' be foreign to Dooku? He's encountered every form. He's encountered Double bladed users...
In other words, Kun has no definitive style edge over Dooku. Dooku's curved hilt gives him the advantage there, though.
Nor are dual phase sabers rarities. Luke even commented they were a 'fad' among Jeid at points and Corran Horn had no issues constructing one.
Given that the usage of a curved hilt blade was giving Bane a complete advantage over Raskta Lsu, who has far more experience with a saber than Kun did...Dooku's got just as much an advantage over Exar. If Exar even has an advantage there at all.
You mean 'constantly ran away while briefly fending off at points' from the Sylvar who hadn't seen combat with another bladesbeing in ten years, right?
Being able to take on people like Mace Windu, General Grievous,
Where's the proof Kun would? You've provided none of it. Just that "he's good.' What puts him above Dooku there exactly?
Dooku's ability to use the force in combat is noted as a rather unique talent at multitasking in combat. When it comes to fights? He's faced Mace Windu, was superior to General Grievous, destroyed Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously in a fight while not at his best-without taking so much as a singed cloak from both. To drive that point in: He fights Tholme, a Jeid who was trained by Anzati in some of the deadliest secrets in the galaxy, is a dueling master, a brilliant Jedi and fighter, at the same time he takes on Sora Bulq, noted as a master of every single Saber form, a Jar'Kai user, considered one of the finest swordsmen in the Order and a master of Vaapad to boot...and he wins. he takes them both on with sabers and almost casually blasts Sora to the ground with force lightning and then easily deals with Tholme.
Sora and Tholme both note he's not fully recovered from his duel with Yoda yet, too. the Attack of the Clones novel describes his Makashi mastery as 'unmatched.' He bests Quinlan Vos with no trouble, broke through Kenobi's Soresu without many issues and was considered one of the most skillful Jedi the Order ever produced. And only got better as a Sith. Yes, Dooku can take Kun down.
IF Kun does that. Not even considering that Mace takes on Kun while dooku holds off Bane. Given the sheer amount of force Dooku is shown handling, his own precision being Bane's nightmare and being intimately aware with the curved hilt saber, he'd be more than capable of holding Bane off while Windu takes on Kun. and is very, very capable of killing him.
That was an example. The point was that versus matches are OOC in general. They are on paper duels; we don't have to limit skills since we're not dealing with storylines.
It's possible that those amulets cancel each other out. It would explain why the ancient Sith don't blast each other. Another explanation is that the duel is cut very short, because it was. Doesn't matter since Kun has shown that he is willing to use the gauntlet, ergo he can in a vs match.
The question is will it affect the fight? The answer is an obvious "No". There's no proof Kun's attitude would change anything or that he wouldn't blast Dooku as you were saying.
Very true and experience counts, but the gap between Yoda & Sidious was...huge. Vodo & Kun...huge. Qui-Gon & Maul...huge. Dooku* & Anakin...huge.
"Always does"? Not against Odan Urr or Sylvar where he used the Force to dispatch them. You can't judge him from a few opponents anyways; there's not enough evidence to assume he favors one over the other.
He wields a double-bladed lightsaber with one hand...he has two hands.
Remember also - he can decrease the energy in his blade so that their lightsabers pass through it. They wouldn't know, thus losing their balance & be wide open for an attack.
Windu only has two - Vaapad & shatterpoint (moot). Dooku doesn't have any cards to play here.
Uh, pretty much everyone AFTER Kun was TAUGHT how to use their double-bladed lightsabers, therefore they aren't creating a style from scratch like Kun.
Kun had to create a unique style because there were no instructions on how to mesh a current style with a DBL-bladed lightsaber. That he could even do that without a teacher or without pre-exisiting knowledge of the saber says much more about his technical skills than the fact the style was unique.
Plus all those others used an extended hilt, Kun's is the size of a normal one which means that he uses it differently than everyone else
Which just suggests that Bane is more talented than Windu & Dooku - what Bane & Kun have done is not commonplace. Mostly everyone takes years to master any single form whereas Kun completed the most difficult to use lightsaber type in 6 months with no formal master! If you want to talk logically, then Kun is a saber genius above everyone in the PT.
He wouldn't need any help in the living flesh where he would be infinitely more powerful than his spirit + greenhorn, 16 y/o Kyp. His Sith magic is like using Force lightning in a fight, it can be done.
Luke had his lightsaber activated, the double teaming was irrelevant since he still had time to defend against the attack but couldn't because he wasn't strong enough. We've seen cases where power negates Force techniques, post-DE Luke didn't have it or any defense.
So there's no proof two guys who know jack-all about Kun's powers could defend against them.
"Gathers up power"? AFBs fire when user ready. Most Force powers don't require more than one second to use. Kun's saber skills are good enough, which is why it comes down to the Force; he wins there.
Dooku exerts himself with the Force more than Kun because he is old and less staminous. This doesn't help here because Kun is actually stronger physically by leagues and Force-wise. His Force abilities eclipse Dooku's. He's fast enough to contend with Ulic who was trained to attack with lightning fast strikes by Arca, demonstrated where he leaps & beheads an ancient Sith Lord's spirit-possessed armor so quickly that the warrior couldn't even bring up his saber.
Vodo was a skilled master (*duh!*), who was so precise that he could find Kun's balance point during the midst of movement & exploit it. But as we saw later during their second duel in TSW, Vodo cannot penetrate his defense and gets slayed effortlessly, so Kun must've learned how to handle precision. This could be comparable to Makashi's bladework, albeit I'll admit that Vodo is not as good as Dooku.
Dooku was struggling with Anakin's strength, speed, stamina & skill - he was getting tired, which is what would happen against Kun. As for your points:
- The advantage is pretty small from a curved hilt as far as I can tell.
- No DBL-blade user is like Exar; unique hilt, unique style.
- Dooku won't know it's a dual-phase, so Exar maintains that advantage.
- [Irrelevant] "Fad at points"? Can you be clearer? Which "points"? [/Irrelevant]
- Makashi would have a hard time defending against Exar's hammer strikes & brute strength.
Advantage: Kun. Now support your side, put some context into it.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
No proof she hadn't fought. It's apparent that she still trained and kept up on her skills however as that is the job of a Jedi Knight.
He also wasn't even trying to kill or harm her at all, she was.
Kreia says that being cut off from the Force is like losing all of your senses at once. She tells that Jedi rely on the Force more than they know. Now Ulic had been stripped for a decade (deteriorated skills) and had less than a decades worth of training to begin with. So he was fighting an experienced knight tapping into her emotions (as with Obi-Wan/Luke, this makes her even more deadly) who had the Force to amplify her and grant her precognition.
A feat never accomplished before or again, his natural affinity for a blade is probably the greatest we've seen yet. Just imagine him in his prime where he stalemates Kun among several other feats [e.g. defeating Mandalore, Warb Null].
^ See above post.
Your proof is like me saying Kun wins because he stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber users the galaxy has ever seen. Kun has most of the relevant advantages for victory against Dooku and he is as skilled at the very least. Contextual evidence is more convincing than feat wars.
It's not that Dooku's "multitasking" is rare, it's that Form II is. Makashi leaves a free hand, all other forms are used with two hands unless user variants like Kun.
- Not recovered from Yoda? Makes no sense since Dooku wasn't injured at all and had...hours/days to recuperate.
- Sora was in a near-fatal crash during Geonosis, so he wasn't in good shape. If he was, then Dooku had to have been in perfect condition.
- Tholme never won any duel he was in; he is not a dueling master; he sucks.
- We've seen cases where two-on-one doesn't do as well as one-on-one (TPM, ROTS). Even four-on-one caused problems for the group since the only good one out of them had to focus on protecting his companions. Tholme has never proven himself particularly skilled with a blade...
- He did not break Kenobi's defense with a lightsaber, he used the Force.
- Quotes that I posted originally are meaningless. Or Kun isn't also one of the most powerful beings ever to exist?
Dooku would do worse against Bane than Kun...but let's take one thing at a time 'cause I hate these so often made huge double posts!
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Oct 31st, 2008 at 10:20 PM
A few things, don't want to get into this heated pissing contest.
1. You say there's no proof Kun couldn't use the amulet blasts during a fight. I'll say there's no proof he CAN use it in a fight against another force user, especially someone as powerful as Dooku, or Windu.
2. kun didn't create the saber or the style. JvsS retconned that. So the argument that Kun's style was unique and died with him, is dead.
3. There isn't one iota of proof that Kun is better or even on par with Dooku or Windu. You'd make more of an argument for Bane, who would most likely take Dooku but wouldn't fare better than Sidious did against Mace, unless he relies solely on the force.
What!...We're not getting heated or pissing??...Well, maybe Lightsnake is...you know how much of an overactive bladder he has. Don't be afraid to enter the convo, Darth Sexy. We won't bite. It's more fun with more people plus we have different views so we get more out of it.
1. Mace needed a lightsaber to block Sidious' lightning (dark side energy same as blasts) and struggled. You can't block the amulet beams with a lightsaber, so you need to use your hands.
What happens when they try to defend against it? The exertion required to block against an attack of that magnitude would be a considerable amount of power, & Kun can fire with no downtime & it gets twice as strong each time. Plus there's a huge element of surprise 'cause they've never seen anything like it before. I'd like to know what makes you think they could stop it.
"They are powerful" - Kun is more powerful & so is his pimp hand where the gauntlet lies.
2. JvS is a fallible, in-universe source. The Ep. I Visual Dictionary says that Exar Kun built the first saber ever in Maul's entry, the databank says Kun was the 1st recorded to have one.
Also it would be impractical during that time since the Jedi had to fight with battery packs that had chords to charge the saber - a DBL-blade would be extremely hard to use because of its already limited movement. No proof there was a style in that holocron if it existed, much less one Kun could use. So JvS is retconned by Advent.
3. Did you read my posts?
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
I never claimed Mace or Dooku or anybody could block the amulet blasts with their hands. I simply said you have no evidence Kun could even use the blasts in an all out fight with other force users.
Again this is assuming Kun even uses the amulet blasts or has the ability to use them against other force users, especially powerful ones. To even have the chance, he'd have to get distance from his combatants, which is easier said than done, if not really impossible. And this is assuming Kun doesn't get sliced into bits by Mace or Dooku.
Are you serious? Lol. Advent, it's been retconned. And please, show me these other sources. But if you're going to play the "its fallible!" game, I guess the other sources are as well, except it's a retcon and therefore valid.
Kun was NOT the first to create the blade, it was done by the exiles whether you think it was logical or not due to the chords. If Kun was not the first to create that particular blade, then he didn't create a unique style for it. Once again, JvS retcons your sources, I don't care how sexy escape finds you.
No, I'm sure they were devilshly sexy and full of witty banter.
Oh, so we don't take anything resembling character and intentions into the fight? When was this a stipulation?
It never has been part of the equation. Ever
It's 'possible?' Let's see some evidence of that
Or it's not nearly as effective to use it on another Force User.
He's shown to use it in one singular occasion when he embraces the Dark side in a time of desperate need. Kun has not demonstrated he can use the gauntlets in a vs. match.
Ergo there's no reason to believe he can or will.
Oh, so "Prove he WOULDN'T just blast Dooku!'
Ridiculous. EVERY OTHER FIGHT, he's drawn his saber and gone down to it. At no point has Kun deciding "I'll just stay here and blast people!"
Even when he was surrounded by four Jedi on a hostile planet. Even when he was looking at Ulic and Aleema sucking their faces off, he chose to announce himself and pull out his saber on Ulic.
Really seems like a guy who'll stand there blasting things like a lunatic.
Vodo had 'experience?' Based on what? Three singular conflicts in his entire lifetime there's no evidence he was involved in whatsoever? And Palpatine and Maul were specifically trained to kill Jedi. Dooku's experience...it kind of trumps Kun's. And his abilities don't hurt.
When did he 'use the Force to dispatch' Sylvar? He force pushes her when she screams at him. In the other instance he tells Kargath to 'deal with her.' And with Odan, he was a BIT pressed for time with the apprentices about to enter the room. Think they might have noticed the sound of a saber being ignited? Kun standing above Odan's charred corpse or sliced up robes?
Methinks they might have some objections
No, he doesn't. He holds it with one hand at one point-so does Maul. He twirls it with one hand before he attacks. So does Sarro. He swings it with...when he fights Ood...two hands. Apparently, he's grabbing it with two hands when he slices through Vodo the second time. The other time? His hands are not visible.
So let's quit the 'He wields it with one hand' rumor.
Yeah, seems a GREAT strategy. Never mind this is one of the saber techniques from the time of Mace and dooku they'd be familiar with
Utterly precise attacks that Mace and Dooku use, plus total familiarity with this tactic as it's kind of from their time?
Is Kun suicidal as well as arrogant?
Curved hilt saber. From the Bane books we know it gives the wielder a HELL of an advantage against someone unfamiliar with it. If Raskta Lsu hadn't yelled at Farfalla to be careful of it, Bane would have taken his arm immediately.
and Dooku's only an ultimate master of the ultimate dueling form. Seems 'a card.'
And why is Shatterpoint 'moot?' It would lead to him figuring out the mood to exploit, the move to use at the right time or allow him to slice Bane's hand off by giving him an indication that his wrists are vulnerable.
Kun by contrast? Has no cards against them.
Yeah, except he was quite possibly FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS from a Holocron. That means he's creating nothing from scratch, he's learning quickly, there's a difference.
Except following the Jedi Exiles' instructions on the subject, apparently.
Given that the Ancient Sith brought at least three holocrons on their invasion, why is it far fetched that Sadow or Nadd left one on Yavin 4, now?
Except you keep ignoring that new evidence more than implies he didn't create a damned thing. and it says nothing about his abilities being superior to two fighters who had shown far more by way of combat .
Prove it. No evidence in the comic whatsoever. By this logic, Sarro Xaj, given that he uses such a HUGE hilt in a ten foot weapon, MUST be using a different style. Asajj Ventress, who uses a double curved hilt DBL? Her style must be just as unique.
And Dooku or Mace are 'commonplace,' right. It suggests Bane is more talented than Kun. It doesn't suggest greater abilities than Mace or Dooku
When was it stated to be 'the most difficult to master' now? Just that it was 'difficult.'
Here's a hint: Being a pathetic gary stu with incredible learning ability doesn't make you a better fighter than people who were saber prodigies of comparable ability with decades to hone their abilities. Dooku, Mace and Bane leave Kun in the dirt when it comes to technical ability. Especially given that the apparent first time Dooku faced Vaapad coupled with Jar'Kai in a life or death fight? He won. Solidly.
Mace: Proven to have created a style
Kun: Didn't.
SUCH a genius! OMG, he has an insane learning rate! What a speshul little guy he is! By that logic, Luke Skywalker, who, within six months of picking up a saber with no prior training was fighting and killing Dark Jedi like Kharys is a saber genius who dwarfs Kun and Bane.
I wasn't aware learning aptitude suddenly translated into direct combat ability. Unless you can prove how long it took Mace and Dooku to master Vaapad and Makashi?
[uote]
He wouldn't need any help in the living flesh where he would be infinitely more powerful than his spirit + greenhorn, 16 y/o Kyp. [/Quote]
Oh, riiight. Which is why he never did this to anyone while he was alive. Probably because Jedi of incredible power can *Gasp* DEFEND THEMSELVES! It's not like putting up defensive barriers is the first things Force Users do in a fight
And Mace and Dooku won't defend themselves and will of course let him do this...why? Dooku is noted as a skilled multitasker in combat. Kun is never noted as such. Dooku is more likely to blast Kun's ponytail off with force lightning before Kun uses Sith magic in a fight
He had his saber activated? Strange, seems he dropped it. And no amount of defense will save you when you are ALREADY HIT. Kyp distracted him first, then Kun joined in from behind when he couldn't defend. Kol Skywalker was shown blocking force lightning. He couldn't defend when Darth Nihl was frying him from behind.
Or more logically, Luke, in the worst position possible, while surprised and double teamed from two sides couldn't defend in that situation.
Guess who don't have that problem? Dooku and Mace. In fact, they've both got quite the defensive capabilities.
Yeah, Mace "I'm one of the guys allowed to study Sith Holocrons" Windu is totally ignorant of the abilities of one of the Jedi Order's greatest traitors. Count "I have great experience with Sith Holocrons and a great knowledge of Sith history" Dooku, who quite probably had access to the Telos Holocron which coincidentally contains just about all of what Kun would have known is going to be totally ignorant.
Nevermind that Kun needs to do it in conjunction of a duel-he's never shown the ability to do so, do it to break through two incredibly powerful Masters' defenses and and do it without losing a head.
Chances= bad.
Prove it. Quote now. All we see are drawing showing it firing.
Except he doesn't. His enemies have demonstrated superior skill in saber abilities and in direct combat in a match? Dooku, who blasted Sora Bulq across the room with a gesture, has shown more with offensive force abilities in the midst of a duel. Kun's powers are not SO much greater than the both of them he can trounce them with a gesture when they're fully defending themselves. Both are more experienced, more combat savvy and more intelligent than he is.
'By leagues?' Oh please. Lay the 'But the GROUND shook when he WALKED!' one on me again. Dooku's said to be one of the most powerful Jedi the order ever produced who only got stronger as a Sith. Given that it's Kun's nature to just got the saber match, he'd be screwing himself over. And physically
Pardon me if I roll my eyes at the idea that being trained in basic combat ability as well as defeating Warb Null is in any way indicative of great abilities. 'Ancient Sith spirits?' Yeah, that's in any way representative of great power or ability...I seem to recall those 'Ancient Sith' being nothing but utter jokes in the Hyperspace Wars.
Perhaps Warb was about to scream at Ulic to go away and leave him alone. Or throw a brick at him. Tried and true Ancient Sith tactics.
By contrast, Dooku defeated without any effort one of the greatest swordsmen of the Jedi order, Sora Bulq, a master of every saber form.
And strength is REALLY going to be an issue from someone who easily blocks blows one handed from General Grievous and Mace Windu. Y'know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say in physical strength? Mace and Grievous eclipse Kun. As far as combat savvy goes? Dooku's got the edge on Kun and given how Kun fights? That's all he needs.
Wow, he could beat a Padawan! And pardon me if I doubt the skill and ability of Vodo's even being a fraction of Mace or Dooku's. I mean, surely we've seen Vodo do something other than 'Fight Exar with stick. Lose." Oh, wait. We haven't. So he was a skilled master. So were Coleman Trebor and T'chooka Duun. From what we saw, Sarro Xaj would kick Vodo's sorry crustacean ass and eat him for dinner.
Uh, yeah, Vodo's precision totally compares to Dooku and Mace's. I mean, Dooku and Mace have shown up amazing displays of saber ability. Or more likely...Vodo is an incompetent dolt taken totally offguard by a style he'd never seen before and had the ludicrous idea of fighting his powerful ex-pupil with a taped up stick.
Yeah, 'comparable.' Right. Let's see some proof. Because from what we've seen from the both of them, Dooku would kill Vodo with the utmost of ease.
he was struggling against Anakin because Anakin was tapping into his incredible reserves...according to the visual dictionaries, his power in the force was simply too much for Dooku. Going to argue that Kun's reserves come even remotely close to Anakin? Given Dooku is able to block and deflect blows in numerous sparring sessions with GENERAL GRIEVOUS, and take on Mace Windu in combat, I don't see Kun getting through on stamina and speed. Let alone the idea that Kun's skill exceeds Dooku's. It doesn't.
Yeah, it was only giving Bane a complete and utter advantage against Raskta Lsu, the experience Blade Master who slaughtered legions of Sith. If she didn't scream a warning, Farfalla would've lost his arm. Yeah, the curved hilt thing? Pretty big.
Prove it. NOW. Guess what? Hilt size doesn't mean a damned thing to 'style' in any canon that we've seen. Ventress and Sarro have different hilts. 'Unique style?' Based on...what? Oh, right, nothing! Just the idea that because his hilt is shorter and he hardly ever uses the thing, it must be totally and utterly unique cause Exar's so SPESHUL! Well, guess what? Nothing in canon saying a thing about unique styles. Nothing indicating the size of the hilt matters there and considering Exar apparently now learned via instruction from a Holocron from people who would have fought the Jedi with that sort of thing, it would seem it's not so totally unknown.
Yeah, like Dooku's never faced anyone with a dual phased saber despite being a lightsaber instructor at a point when the things were practically fads. Given that he's fast enough to face three separate blades on all sides of him, Exar needs to pull the trick off quickly or he loses the advantage, given Dooku's extraordinary combat reflexes and precise way of fighting. More logically, Exar has to keep very self conscious and continuously alter his moves to compensate for Dooku's curved hilt.
Given that Dooku had no problems taking on someone who's fighting style revolved around using a Shoto in conjunction with a normal saber to trip the enemy up. And he's able to take Asajj "curved hilt style double bladed saber" Ventress (How unique is HER style?), I sincerely doubt the enemy having a unique hilt is a problem to one of the Jedi Order's greatest dueling masters
Throughout the entire order. Hell, by Dooku's time, we know Trakata was in use, which is essentially what the thing is. Dooku kept himself up to date with dueling skills and the conventions that came with that. Given dual-phase sabers were dueling weapons, stands to reason he'd have at least a passing familiarity.
Just like he had issue defending from Mace and Grievous's hammer strikes and brute strengths. Considering Dooku knows Djem So well enough to teach it very well to Grievous...
And given Dooku's saber giving him the advantage, what's to stop Kun from losing an arm first go? Farfalla, someone with way, way more combat experience than Kun would have lost an arm to Bane by virtue of being completely unaware of the alteration the curved hilt gave.
Advantage: Dooku.
And stop your whining about context when just about everything you say doesn't bother taking it into consideration.
Yeah, Kun's ever demonstrated the saber ability that compares to Kun's. Right. Sure. Dooku beats Kun in skill, experience, precision, and has just as much of an unfamiliarity advantage. And heaven help Kun if Mace goes for him right off while Dooku holds off Bane.
Oh, no proof she HADN'T. I'm sorry, I thought the burden of proof would be on you. What with the war being over and no evidence of her whatsoever having been involved in the great hunt.
Is that the best you have here? And apparent from? She was staying on Cathar, seemingly doing little at all.
He briefly blocks her while fleeing. Do you think on even ground for any extended amount of time, he would be able to even hold back Johun Othone?
Really, this is an indication of Sylvar's skill level as much as it is of Ulic's
'Less than a decade?' How long was he being trained by Arca, exactly?
And again, blocking Sylvar's blows all of three times while fleeing from her, when there's no evidence Sylvar so much as touched her saber when living on Cathar in ten years...
And when he trained Vima, Ulic did teach her a saber and given that he activates it in Redemption and does a manuever with it, it might seem he hasn't let it sit at his side completely.
I'd say Kel'laden actually being on the verge of defeating Johun Othone with a pair of crescent cortosis blades to be pretty comparable.
And 'natural affinity probably the greatest?' Oh, come on, yes it's good. But blocking several blows from an enraged berserker never shown to have anything beyond 'passable' skills in time of war is not indicative of 'Saber God.' and something that keeps getting ignored: he didn't Sylvar. He didn't come close. He spends the fight shouting at her, running away and briefly blocking a blow when she closes in.
Mandalore is at least something? Warb Null? Oh, save us from the brick tossers, Ulic.
And I'll say again: He's shown anything superior to Dooku or Mace?
And my proof is that Mace and Dooku both defeated some of the greatest lightsaber users the galaxy had ever seen.
The most 'relevant advantages' in fairytale land maybe. On actual scrutiny, he's the one at the disadvantage in saber combat. Given that dooku is one of the prime warriors of the 'Prime of the Jedi', the greatest Makashi user of that time and one of their most experienced fighters who, like Kun, has fought one of the greatest swordsmen in galactic history. In conjunction with another great swordsman. And beat them both
Oh, is this code for admitting Kun lacks the showings? Because it seems Dooku and Mace have the contextual backing just as much.
Dooku's multitasking ability is described as 'notable.' And he strikes with two hands on his saber quite a bit.
Sora: I feel your exhaustion, Count. You were tested on Geonosis as well. I'll accept your surrender.
His gunship went down. Apparently he was either not aboard or escape it, because he was fine when he flew to Bakura with Tholme immediately after.
Errr...does being able to take on Sora Bulq and survive count? Or own a lot of numerous Anzati at once? Dooku comments he's a skilled duelist and he kills two Morgukai without even trying. he also takes on Quinlan Vos and implies later he is fully capable of killing Quin. he and Sora were good friends, too. When Jedi are experienced at fighting together and complementing one another, they tend to be a good team. Tholme's not Johun Othone
Kenobi attacks him first, Dooku takes the blow, breaks it, then grabs him with the Force.
He is. Dooku and Mace would be as well.
Hardly. Bane's prime advantage is gone and Bane unless Bane is stronger than Grievous...
Oct 30th, 2008 10:39 PM
It's more fun with more people plus we have different views so we get more out of it.
