I can agree with the logic behind Vader lost to Luke but we have no written proof of Vader being able to kill Luke with force. The point I am making is that we Luke finally went all out on Vader, Vader with all his mastery and power could not stop Luke from defeating him.
Personally I don't see Ventress ever being able to do that to Vader.
I feel like Im repeating myself in different threads but in the "Courtship of Princess Leia," when Luke is being blasted by FL by a nightsister he says (in almost these exact words) "so this is what it would've been like if Vader had tried to kill him on the death star, who had Luke been kidding he's no jedi....." This further adds proof to the case that Vader could've killed Luke had he used the force.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
It's not the matter of the lightning itself, but that his opponent wasn't playing games with him. The first half of their duel in ROTJ, it is clear vader wasnt trying to kill him. Then Luke ran and next went into a berserk rage that Vader couldnt defend against and I believe the novel notes that he was caught off guard by Luke's ferocity. (I'll get back to you on that later) Then it was pretty obvious that Palpatine intended for Luke to die a slow and painful death not a quick one which he was certainly capable of doing.
It seems that way Elite because you are not reading what people are saying. Without going into the same argument with you again, here are the points you seem to constantly ignore, in the movie Vader and Yoda stated that Luke needed no more training denoting that Luke had obtain a certain level. Yoda stated only if he killed Vader would he be a Jedi.
Two, even though Luke was using aggression he only went all out on Vader at the very end. In the quotes from the novel that you provided in another thread it shows that the thought passed Vader head that his son might defeat him.
Three, no one disagrees that Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side. No one is stating Luke was more powerful than Vader as of ROTJ or that Vader could not have killed Luke. The point is when Luke did lose control Vader who was a master Sith Lord could not handle it. With all of Vader skill and power he was not able to stop Luke. Luke was not as weak as you and some others portray him to be. Point is Ventress could not do the same to Vader under the same circumstances.
Lastly stating that Vader someone 80% of Sidious could kill Luke with the force does not make Luke weak. You can write a list or names of people in Star Wars history that would die if Vader used the force on them.
You do take in to consideration that, aside from turning away from the Dark Side (a very Jedi like move---props to Luke for that), Movie-Luke has shown no other feat or ability that puts him at the rank of even a PT Padawan? SO---it is quite possible that when Yoda says "no more training do you require", that he was speaking of Luke's mentality (demonstrated when he turned away from Palpatine) and not his combat prowess?
I mean lol... what kind of a dick would Yoda be, sending Luke to take out the man who outmatched him, and with only like a month of professional training?
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
When you say Luke has shown no feats are comparing Luke to other movie characters or to what is describe in literature? If literature then your statement is unfair. If we compare the feats or powers that are displayed in the movie in comparison to what is describe in literature then of course they are not great. But in terms of movies Luke has the greatest feats.
As for Luke skills yes this is a subject for debate but as I see it what we do have to base Luke skills and powers on are the quotes from Yoda and Vader which were in agreement. Vader definitely was not referring to just a mental state but to Luke’s skills and power. Then we have the fact that Luke did overpower Vader when losing control. Vader certainly did not simply allow that to happen. Is it not true that at the end of ROTJ that Luke status is that of a Jedi?
As for the fight, I believe Ventress will simply piss off Luke and get overpowered as she did in her first fight with Anakin. Obi Wan and Maul I am not sure.
Last point first: that's assuming that Luke is easily driven to rage. Vader and Palpatine taunting him is understood---they have a preexisting relationship involving Luke and his life.friends. Ventress not so much. Plus she's a f/ucking beast in saber combat. Movie-Luke's not shown defensive capabilities enough to withstand someone as fast and ferocious as her.
And to the original point: yes I mean Movie-Luke. Luke's skills in saber combat and use of the Force is never shown to be all that fantastic, nevermind being able to go up against someone like Ventress or whoever else is involved here.
And to the point of Luke's Jediness: Yoda said he was "ready." Taking in to account that he MUST have known Luke could never defeat Palpatine, the point that Luke only defeated Vader when he used the Dark Side (a very NON-Jedi trait), and the point that even if Luke wasn't ready it wouldn't matter because Yoda's dead---one can conclude that he was counting on Luke to either turn Vader or die trying. He managed the first so good for Luke. And just like KEnobi being knighted for turning facing a Sith and rejecting the Dark, Luke would be an official Jedi once he did the same. And he did. Good for Luke. The skills aren't worth shit if you don't have the right mentality.
But that aside, RotJ Luke simply hasn't shown the skills and speed to match the speed and skills Ventress is seeing applying.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
All Luke did was cut off Vader's arm, so I guess he really isn't a jedi yet.... And Vader's thoughts did make it obvious that he felt that Luke needed more training before he could face the emperor.
Might and will are two totally different things, especially when one opponent is a HUGE advantage that he chose to not use, and I'm still going to find the ending of the duel so i cant get a better understanding of Vader's mind state before he lost his hand.
No, because Ventress has no way of getting that same "DS boost" as Luke did nor does she have the raw power as Luke. But she still would beat him because she is quicker, more experience, would have no issue using the force on him, and she uses two lightsabers or she could connect to them to create a DBL, both are two forms that Luke isn't familiar with and would be a HUGE disadvantage for him in saber combat.
Yeah because every PT padawan was able to Force Choke 2 Gammorean guards simultaneously with a simple hand jesture, mastered jedi mind tricks, quick enough to take out Boba Fett and powerful enough to destroy Jabba the Hutts whole gang..
Just because PT era have better choreography and special effects doesnt mean you can use that against OT characters. Besides Luke vs. Vader was much more impressive than Mace vs. Sidious.
I already stated this if you are going to compare movie Luke to a character that was never played in the movies by an actress then that is not fair. Everything you said about Luke anger is speculation. Good points though. Luke has always used aggression when fighting in the movies. There is no reason to believe he would not do so at this point when fighting another character besides Vader.
Point being I do not see Ventress putting Vader on his butt with Vader using the same effort he did against Luke. It wasn’t just Luke’s skill but the amount for force he was exerting that put Vader on the floor.
Apr 28th, 2009 08:05 PM
