What does it matter if Jacen was caught off guard? It becomes irrelevant when Jacen tries to get out of this maneuver, but has no luck, while Luke is standing with his arms behind his back chastising him.
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He is "much" more powerful, if you want to believe his own words on that issue. He compares his own increase in power to that which Luke has made from RotJ to DE, which might be quite a leap in ability.
Well. Gideon is right. He pretty much took Jacen off-guard and caught him in force stasis (or something of that sort). We don't know if one even can defend against this (or actively break out), going by the fact that Malak was capable of trapping Revan and Bastilla with an ability that seemed to be similar to what Luke did to Jacen.
However. I don't see why this topic is even argued. Luke overcame the most powerful incarnation of Sidious in lightsaber combat already. And that was more than 30 years in the past, when he was lacking force control (=speed) and maybe was a slightly worse duellist, given that - at the time of DN - he was able to match every other member of the order using his off-hand and later on even Jacen himself claims that his uncle is the best lightsaber combatant in the Galaxy. And we're going to use his upper showing in the art...
And force use? Luke can, apparently, come up with a force defense that can't be overwhelmed - even if we attribute most descriptions of that to hyperbole. And his offensive force powers (even when we limit that to TK applications) are also pretty nasty. Even if we just assume that he is - powerwise - ahead of Sidious but lacks the force control of the Emperor (and I, personally, think this is a stretch) he could just take Sidious in a force contest with brute force. He pretty much did that already in DE. And even if one might jump in here and cry that it was just because of the power of Leia and unborn Anakin. The comic states that Leia just uses her power to unlock Luke's potential and Luke doesn't even notice that his sister joined her power (and that of her unborn child) to his own. So one could argue if that had any considerable, other than unlocking some of Luke's potential (which means he can be as powerful or even more powerful than that in his recent incarnation).
On the other hand: What is Sidious going to do? Attacking Luke in his later incarnation with the force is almost useless and doing it with a lightsaber also doesn't seem to be a wise choice. We could also thrust Lucas' word on the issue who claimed that Luke is what Vader should have been, which would imply that he is going to become much more powerful than the Emperor. One could ask: When shall that happen, if it didn't already happen? Luke is almost 60 years old. Does somebody expect a huge increase in power in the retirement age?
So I have to say that Luke would still take this. Maybe barely - but in the end I don't see how Sidious is going to win this fight.
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It's more or less comes down to simple tactics. Certain castles retain enough fortification to repel most assaults and invasions; if their doors are wide open however and the enemy makes it inside, there's no gaurantee that the inhabitants of the castle can push back the intruders. Jacen's Force defense was down; the narration makes a particular point of that. By the time he tried to fight Luke off (and the narration only says that he tried to move, not, as I recall, that he tried to overpower his uncle), the damage had already been done.
As far as Luke's defeat of Palpatine is concerned, Skywalker was only able to truly defeat the Emperor in combat with the aid of Leia Organa Solo and Anakin Solo; the fact that he did not "feel" their involvement does not mean that it wasn't there. The power in particular is Force Harmony:
It's an extremely powerful technique. And, once again, as the Essential Guide to the Force makes quite clear: Luke "realized he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone."
Edit: Oh, and the Ultimate Visual Guide says quite clear in the Empire Reborn chapter that Palpatine "studied in the Force to become more powerful" during his sojourn on Byss.
We have noted that Jacen was powerful to fight Luke in a classic duel, and live. In the scene we're discussing, yes he was caught unaware, but that's not justification for anything. What do you mean "the damage has been done" exactly? If he couldn't break Luke's hold while trying, what makes you think he would have been able to defend against it had Luke NOT surprised him?
Which might be indication enough that the two aren't as distant as some like to assert.
Because it requires a more concerted, stronger effort to break through someone's defenses than when they are down. He might not have been able to pull off the same technique had Caedus been aware of what he was about to do and able to resist and/or fight back.
He might not have been able to. Then again, he just might have. We're arguing over yet another instance of power inconsistency throughout the Legacy universe.
No one's saying for certain that he would have been able to do so; but this is a Sidious vs. Luke thread. Points like "he held Jacen in his grip with ease!!1!" are brought up to try to argue a case for Luke against Sidious.
Jacen is not Sidious. Faunus was contending that Luke would be able to do "quite a bit" to Palpatine with telekinesis alone, and I'm merely questioning that idea.
I always thought it was something like a wrestling move or an arm-bar, where if you are held it becomes extremely difficult to break free, if not impossible.
No, I'm "getting it". I'm just not debating Luke vs. Palpatine, instead electing to contest the notion that Luke only pwned Jacen because Jacen wasn't prepared.
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Registered: Sep 2008
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This fight belongs to Luke. What can Sidious do to Luke anyway, overpower him with the force? I don't think so. Luke's potential makes a foe too strong for Sidious, and by his prime, a Jedi Master as him with decades of training, he surely surpassed Sidious.
"He will become more powerful then either of us" Sidious said to Yoda about Anakin, and according to George Lucas the same is aplied to Luke.
I really don't get all this bias towards Sidious, I though it was pretty much established that Luke was THE ultimate force in the Star Wars universe.
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What's the point in arguing it? I never contended that Jacen could resist the attack; I contended that Sidious is not Jacen and the fact that Luke managed to overpower him when his defenses weren't activated wasn't an indication that he can take Sidious. Which remains valid.
Prove it.
Yes.
Oh, well in that case, it must not be true.
Potential is irrelevant. Only fulfilled potential matters. Luke always had the potential to be more powerful than the Emperor; it didn't stop Palpatine from beating his ass in Return of the Jedi.
Define "prime." Luke is sixty now; Palpatine enjoyed a tremendous surge of power between sixty and eighty, and then some years later. Luke, meanwhile, enjoys a knowledge base that is less reliable and inferior. Who are you to say that he is "in his prime"?
Yes. But that doesn't mean that he is necessarily at that point yet. We have to go on showings as well.
Registered: Sep 2008
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I don't have to, the burden of proof is with you.
Prove it.
Sure it isn't.
Great example, using Luke with less training then padawan Anakin Skywalker by AOTC...
Eih, I didn't make the thread, but as far as this thread goes the concept of "prime" becomes arbitrary, and as such I can try to use as foe what I think it's Luke Skywalker at the maximum capabilites ever showed. As for Sidious' increase of power, I would like you to prove that "Palpatine enjoyed a TREMENDOUS surge of power between sixty and eighty, and then some years later" because as far as I recall I have never seen a force user who has been trained correctly since childhood in the ways of the force to have a "tremendous surge of power" at such age, especially one who have study "all aspects of the force" as Sidious himself said to anakin during ROTS, since childhood until his sixties....
By ROTS Anakin, who had only 13 years of jedi training and who was far from a schoolar, had already reach a level of power that allowed him to be an unstoppable machine when he was "in the zone", and why? Because he was using his potential in order to fuel his dueling abilities. And he was such a machine that he made Dooku ate dust and that even Nick Gallard said that Anakin using the dark side was at the same level of dueling ability as Yoda or Sidious. So, with this, I think any person understands that a Luke Skywalker with several decades of training would already be FAR stronger then Anakin by ROTS.
By the way, I though Luke had plenty of showings... Flying the Millennium Falcon single-handedly using only the Force doesn't count? Or maybe killing slayers with electric judgment? Beating the crap of Darth Vader in a strict lightsaber duel besides the fact that Luke had hardly ANY lightsaber training at the time?
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May 23rd, 2009 07:55 PM
