Combatants: At her known peak, Sith Apprentice Bastila Shan versus Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Setting: I know you don't take the locale into account, but we'll go with the Hanger Bay aboard the Death Star where Vader fought Old Ben.
Rules: If you know anything about my rules, you'd know there is only one: none.
If you are unfamiliar with Bastila Shan, please familiarize yourself with her at her Wookiepedia page or play KOTOR. Bastila is aloud to use all her displayed dark side powers, and I believe with sourcebooks and the like, information on her abilities is more than plentiful. But, will it be enough to match the cunning Master Kenobi? You decide!
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Probably Bastila, she just has too many powerful and esoteric Force powers. And that leaves Kenobi in a bad position, becuase he'll have to actively engage her to stop her from using the Force on him, eliminating his greatest strength: his massive defensive capabilities.
This is spite. RotS Obi-Wan's a virtual Unknown--he has only one movie to his name, and it's subjective to viewer opinion. There just isn't enough quantifiable feats to his name. Whereas there's three games with detailed and canonical description to everything Dark Side Bastila can do and has done: games, books, comics, encyclopedias, George Lucas commentaries.
There's a reason the KMC rules list the films as "Unknown" factors. How do we know if my DVD's rendition of Kenobi beat Vader with lightsabers or Force Pushes? How do we know if he had any medpacs or frag mines? There are too many variables left open and unanswered.
Also, Advent's back. Yay!
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Yes, I see the scenario playing out in that manner, as well. Originally, it was going to be a team battle between Bastila and Dooku versus Yoda and Obi-Wan, but I first wanted to see where people's opinions were on Bastila's strength. Obi-Wan is generally the bench-mark by which I gauge characters.
Anyways, as stated, there's little Obi-Wan could do to withstand her in the Force department, especially when he hasn't even encountered nor heard of any of the plethora of skills in Bastila's deck. In terms of saber ability, combined with temperance and experience, I could see Obi-Wan defeating Bastila because of her brashness, especially in conjuncture with the dark side fueling her a la the dreaded duel on Mustafar against Anakin. Overall though, Bastila, being the more gifted of the two - particularly with her Sith arcana - would be the triumphant one, I would think.
On a side-note: *Pokes my Dex-Pal, Nephthys* Are you ready for the next season of Dexter in just over a month?! It promises to be murderously pleasurable - can't wait!
There are too many variables in the above text to make any form of cogent response. That being said, it seems you've left your variable open. *points and giggles at Lucien*
Better yet: LUCIEN IS STILL HERE! YAY! Of course, I cannot be sure if that's a good or bad thing for you...my senses tell me that there is still much noob in this forum.
Yes, KMC's Cherry Blossom has bloomed once again. I was going to wait until I re-watched The Dark Knight before customarily returning, but then thought, if I am going to be dragged back into the aching idiocy and migraines brought about by such discussions that stem too many letters in length, I'll just stick to kosher Star Wars. Notwithstanding, in the end, a second thought sparked within me - for the pure paradoxical entertainment purposes that this board brings, I think I'll watch it today...or is the fun already over?
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Aug 20th, 2010 at 11:34 AM
And what are these "plethora of skills" you speak of exactly? Aside from her battle meditation, what exactly does she have that Obiwan can't handle? I only ask because I've played KOTOR a million times and still can't figure out what makes Bastila so special aside from her BM.
You could see? When has Bastila been an exceptional saber duelist like Obiwan? I understand that Obiwan's Soresu is mainly for defensive purposes but we know very little about Bastila's saber prowess other than she wasn't exceptional.
That discussion was the single most stressful encounter I've had all week, probably, culminating in an e-pal suffering acute psychological breakdown because I'm not a Batman fanatic and my thorough responses being deleted by an uncooperative internet connection.
Advent gave her all of these: 'During her short time as a Sith apprentice, she was capable of using Force powers such as Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, and Force Stasis Field. From her point of view, she was more powerful than all but a few Jedi Masters, Malak, and of course, Revan himself.'
I have dirtied my undergarments. Just a month? Oh hell yes!
Holy shit. It's been a while Mokoto Sama. I've missed all the epic debates we used to have (especially the ones involving Odan-Urr, Crado and Oss Wilum (that I like totally won )).
Where are these canonical powers stated exactly? Not sure if any of those powers exist outside of gameplay, and nobody cares about Bastila's point of view because it's not credible.
The way I envision the scenario playing out, Obi-Wan's defensive nature and comparatively diminutive Force skills would pigeon-hole him into a situation where he's faced with a combination of deadly Force powers and an offensive, double-bladed lightsaber-wielding Sith. Unfortunately there's no terrain for Kenobi to manipulate, and the only way it looks like he could win is if Bastila gets too arrogant a la Darth Maul or her rage causes her to make the slightest mistake, which Kenobi would quickly (and easily) capitalize on. Otherwise, it will be Sith-fried Obi-Wan that Bastila will be bringing home to Malak in a doggy bag for dinner. It is my opinion, but I just find it highly unlikely Kenobi would win due to the huge Force disadvantage he is at and the exceptional nature of the opponent.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
First, we'll start with that skill set, which includes:
• Force Slam, Force Grip [Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide],
• Sever Force, Battlemind (a personal applicant or variant of Battle Meditation will no ill effects for opponent), Battle Influence [Star Wars Miniatures, Champions of the Force],
• Dominate Mind, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Slow, Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, Force Stasis Field [demonstrated Knights of the Old Republic, within canon].
Second, Obi-Wan's greatest feat with the Force, as far as I know, was perhaps moving a small transportation vehicle several yards with telekinesis or matching the mentally-trainwrecked (and therefore, weakened Force connection) Anakin Skywalker. This notwithstanding, Obi-Wan is a Jedi, ergo he's restricted in terms of powers, basically limiting his repertoire to TK.
Third, of all those powers listed, there's several Kenobi would be unfamiliar with, and in general, he would be unfamiliar on how to handle such an encounter of ancient abilities executed with Bastila's Force strength and penchant for mind-alteration. When we bring her Battle Meditation into perspective, it shows us how deeply she can affect a being's psyche. What is Battle Meditation main operating mechanic?
"Shan was gifted in art of Jedi Battle Meditation, a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters. Through sheer force of will, she could influence the course of massive battles. She could bolster the courage of one side of a battle, while draining the resolve of another." [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan]
A direct example of her willpower to affect others would be simultaneously Force Stunning Juhani and Jolee Bindo. Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.
That's where it's obvious that Obi-Wan just wouldn't be able to withstand a savage barrage from Shan due to her mind's fortitude. With the dark side spells learned under Malak, there's no way Obi "Force Pwned by a flick of the wrist" Kenobi can contend with Bastila.
A fair point. Obi-Wan would likely be able to take down Bastila in a battle where Shan is restricted to no Force powers for the reasons I posted earlier. But such a scenario is silly and would require Shan to deviate from her normal routine of combining Force powers with her intense lightsaber attacks. What we do we know of Bastila's lightsaber talents and fighting prowess are clear enough:
- By the age of 19, Bastila had mastered at least one lightsaber form (a single blade stance), and possessed a proficiency in her personally-constructed double-bladed lightsaber, which is far more difficult to be adept at and takes much more skill to wield than a single blade.
- From the fact that she is the youngest Jedi to have ever mastered Battle Meditation to the point where she could turn the tide of a galactic war, and the rate at which she gained adroitness in Sith spells under Darth Malak, the inference is that her learning aptitude is among the highest of her times. This would extend to her lightsaber training, explaining why she was able to became so skilled in multiple saber styles.
- According to the Wizards of the Coast article, Jedi Counseling 81, as a Jedi Sentinel, Bastila "strikes a balance between the Jedi consular (focusing on diplomacy and a mastery of the Force) and the Jedi guardian (focusing on physical abilities and mastery of the lightsaber)". So, her training regime has effectively been to work on both areas of combat.
- The first time we're shown Bastila's Strike Team in a canon cutscene, she is at the forefront, making mincemeat out of an upper tier Sith, presumably a master-level, as he was seen as a personal bodyguard of Revan:
- From both KOTOR and the official Databank, the Jedi Council - despite "[k]nowing how valuable [Bastila] was to the order" and wanting to keep her safe - still tasked her with being the leader of the Jedi Strike Team to take down the war experienced commander, immensly powerful, full-fledged Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Revan. This speaks volumes for her abilities insofar that it suggests her viewpoint, contrary to what you may believe, was true: that she was more powerful than all, but a handful of master-level Force users in her time. The Council would not send an "unexceptional" duelist with no powers other than Battle Meditation. Neither would Malak choose her to be his second-in-command out of thousands of bloodthirsty Sith purely based on BM, which he deemed ultimately unnecessary.
- Although her brashness and overconfidence could (and most likely would) end up being Bastila's undoing, her heroic spirit has never backed down from a physical fight - even if she is outmatched. She charged head-on and managed to stall against Darth Malak for a short amount of time, who at that point had surpassed Darth Revan in darkness [Knights of the Old Republic]. At the Temple of the Ancients on Rattaka, three-on-one: Revan, Jolee, and Juhani versus the corrupted Bastila, she was able to fend off and avoid capture, unharmed; only after doing an unalterable (and therefore canonical) move of a telekinetic wave that penetrated the defenses of and knocked down the trio of attackers.
- The campaigns waged against the Republic saw her as a Jedi Battle Commander, and "the quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi" [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan]. So, although we don't have the exact details of every encounter (we do definitively have some), it is certain that Shan has gained much experience, facing a range of Dark Jedi, troopers, mammalians, and all kinds of scum and villainy throughout the course of her Jedi career. We know she aided in the battle on the Leviathan that would kill Saul Karath. For the first Star Map, we know she helped to destroy the droids capable of killing an experienced Jedi Knight, trusted by the Jedi Council for the task.
- As a dark sider, she can "[focus her] anger and hatred [making her able to fly into a berserker rage, increasing her battle prowess]. Using the Force in this way can push the body's physical abilities beyond what it can normally handle." [Jedi Academy Training Manuel, Page 47]. Combined with her Battlemind ability, or Battle Influence, she can further "[augment] one's morale and fighting spirit", such as Mace Windu did with his Vaapad usage or "envision a specific reality and make it real with the Force".
- Finally, according to Champions of the Force Preview 6, "Bastila [is] clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus." Obviously, their skill sets differ and they are far from on an equal playing field (Dooku would crush her and did so to Kenobi), but she is stated to be in the league of the latter two, meaning - at the very least - she would be able to hold her own in some respect; against Obi-Wan in particular, as the case has been outlined here.
Now, where did you come up with the idea that "[W]e know...Bastila's saber prowess...wasn't exceptional"?
Also, if you don't mind me asking, given your playing KOTOR a million times, the impression that Bastila wasn't anything but a one-trick pony stemmed from what? I barely remember my playthroughs and Bastila, to me, seemed like the Jedi Order's Golden Girl - a padawan leading a Strike Force to capture the Dark Lord, being one of the key reasons for the Republic's survival against the Sith onslaught, amazing powers, an extraordinary Force and learning potential, oh, and the ability to perform a double-bladed lightsaber throw and actually catch it on return!
On an irrelevant note, she has just got the cutest personality! Disgruntled because of stupid, old, know-nothing Jedi Masters; she should have been running the Academy, anyways. I earnestly enjoyed hearing her tedious lectures; Bastila reminds me of Naomi Hunter in that sense (from the MGS series; coincidentally, voice acted by Jennifer Hale, too).
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Aug 21st, 2010 at 06:43 AM
No, no - the harshest pummelling would come from the possible innuedo in your previous post:
Now the whole kitchen business I have gotten countless times on virtually every social internet medium; here's to any ham and cheese sammich in your future:
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XD! I've always wondered if your delusions stem from drinking your own urine-infused Kool-Aid, or is that just a trait you were born with?
Lest us remember that thread regarding Force potentials, where you were forced into bringing in two moderators - "English Major Gestapo" Ushgarak, as well as Lana - where all of you were utterly wrong on the connotation of the word "apex" in regards to Maul's force potential (unfortunately, I had to surrender under authoritarian pressure). Good times. ^_-
Count Kent, l0rd?, [Captain] Planet, HK-69, et alii; I made the compendium post somewhere (now long outdated) and I even know your first secret identity. Glad to know you are still socking it to the Man (but of course, never the Woman).
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
In the interest of balancing out the amount of ass kissing within this thread, I must play devil's advocate.
Advent, I am not happy to see you back here, I have not been making happy birthday threads for you every year (this one being the except since I took a year off coming here) since you've joined, and I hate your siggy and avatar. Your dumbassery and inability to comprehend simple logic is a plague to this forum, and I feel dumber for reading your posts.
Get out, and never return.
Also, Maul sux. So there.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 21st, 2010 at 07:12 AM
Aug 20th, 2010 09:20 AM
Of course, I cannot be sure if that's a good or bad thing for you...my senses tell me that there is still much noob in this forum.
I've missed all the epic debates we used to have (especially the ones involving Odan-Urr, Crado and Oss Wilum (that I like totally won 
