When that occurred, Sidious was in the presence of a Dark side Nexus.
For some reason, most people seem to ignore/forget that Leia was using her Battle Meditation to empower Luke during his rematch with Sidious, but regardless, Luke during Dark Empire seems to be roughly on par with Yoda in terms of skill and power.
Caedus is likely a notch above DE Luke is the saber-department, but either way.
DE Luke would win by the skin of his teeth - and Caedus not by much more than that.
If Caedus can drop Battlemaster Kyle Katarn in 10 seconds - he's on par with Yoda.
With all of his unique capabilities, experience, the sum of his power, etc - Caedus would win - but it would be close.
Alright, after listening to Visage's counterarguments, I think this is a draw. This fight is so close that I think the environment and other outside circumstances would be the deciding factor.
O yeah?
Let me refresh your memory:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA".
As per script Sidious almost fell from edge, which happened because they were on platform on first place. The unfavorable circumstance is rather obvious.
And as per script Sidious drops lightsaber himself in order to remain on the platform.
In film it is seen that platform surface is uneven deprving Sidious from moving freely. And indeed Sidious stays statically in the middle, while Yoda freely jumps around him. Considering that Sidious normally relies on acrobatics and uses foot work a lot, he is rather at big disadvantage.
Keep in mind that Luke was on Darkside at that point. He only had brief training from Sidious. It doesn't suit his personality and only gave Sidious influence over him. In second fight he re-embrased Lightside, which he used for 10 years.
The only time he hestiate was, when Jacen was enwitted in vines and only because Ben shouted. Otherwise Luke tried to kill him as quickly and mercilessly as it could get:
"Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been"
"Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-"
Trying to split Jacen in half at chest level right after elbowing him in the temple and kneeing in the chin hardly defines as hestitated to kill family member. And it's not like Jacen would have second head grow, if Luke succeeded in decapitating him.
In comparison Kenobi was much kinder to his enemies. When he broke Opress' leg, he chopped off a hand instead of killing. When Anakin jumped, he chopped off his limbs. Later against Krayt he again chopped off hand. But Luke aimed his lightsaber at places that would nothing less than kill.
The reason is that Leia aiding Luke is only an assumption used to lowball Luke's feat. She did not use BM during saber fight and there is no source that would state that. It's a mere speculation.
As per audiobook Leia is just a passive observer:
"LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!"
Leia aided Luke only after he disarmed Palpatine to counter Force Storm: "LEIA: But WE can, Luke. WE can do it. That's what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours".
Farther, Leia discovered knowledge about BM only in DE 2 and still she did not learn to use it, just read text.
Finally, DE sourcebook describes technique Luke and Leia used as "Force harmony" and it specifically states that they used this technique to counter Force Storm, no mention of saber fight. Will bring the quote later, if you want.
So, it can be safely concluded that Leia did not use BM and never possessed this ability at all. Luke defeated Sidious in saber fight fair and square.
Last edited by Arhael on Feb 24th, 2013 at 02:43 PM
Yoda disarms Sidious. This is obvious. For you to interpret the script's description as Sidious dropping his lightsaber on purpose is flat out ridiculous. It didn't say Sidious put his lightsaber down. He dropped it. As in "oh shit, I just lost my lightsaber because Yoda is beating the shit out of me." Hence the qualifer; "...but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY..."
This is similar to how a football player drops/fumbles the ball after being drilled. Please cease with the desperate interpretation.
__________________ “Life is tough, but it is tougher when you’re stupid.” -John Wayne
Last edited by Jinsoku Takai on Feb 24th, 2013 at 10:23 PM
To be honest I'm not sure I buy into him being disadvantaged, since it was his choice to move the fight there. And Yoda having to jump around edge of the senate pod isn't exactly ideal for him.
As of the events of Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, Jerec's goal was only to attain the power of the Valley of the Jedi.
And the game material confirmed that Jerec rivaled Vader in terms of power, so he was already on par with Vader.
The Jerec that Kyle defeated though, was even more powerful than that (absorbed the souls of Jedi at the Valley of the Jedi), and thusly surpassed Vader.
Hah! Are you implying that Luke's performance was hampered? All evidence suggests opposite.
Luke was angry in that fight. Should I remind you how angry Luke outskilled Vader? Or how anger empowers Force users in general and makes them much more dangerous combatats?
Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke took early advantage of his sneak attack and nearly killed Jacen right at the begining. How many characters would be able to sustain elbow to the temple? Add the knee smash into chin followed by lightsaber strike into chest and it becomes miraculous that Jacen survived at all.
Jacen barely recovered from previous attack and Luke does another lethal combo: Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-
Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - do you ever remember Luke trying to overpower someone with strength? Fight against Vader is perhaps the only example.
And yet another dirty trick from Luke:
"His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.
Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head."
And another one:
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."
Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.
So how exactly do you imagine Yoda beating Jacen? Luke did it through unarmed combat techniques, which he normally doesn't employ at all and still fight ended in stalemate. Yoda can't do same things cos of his physical limitations. Through pure saber skill? Yoda was unable to defeat Dooku on even ground. Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform, on even ground there is no way Sidious would get disarmed by Yoda. Luke is superior to both Dooku and Sidious and Caedus still badly battered him. That's sufficient enough to be above likes of Yoda and Windu. [/QUOTE]
That is a long reply because of a misunderstanding. I'lll stand by what I said, which was, imo, objective. Though I greatly disagree with Caedus beating Yoda in any fair battlefield. Caedus couldn't beat Luke in a fair fight either.
__________________ "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself."
- Darth Plagueis
"She may be small but she packs a punch and when shes in this mood...she goes for my danglers" - Oghren, Dragon Age
Also I just wanted to add that just because anger made Luke stronger in a fight 40 years ago doesn't mean the same holds true for an older more mature Luke. He's usually most lethal when he has a clear head is focussed and almost cockey. Luke actually comments on it right after his fight with jacen when he says to Ben "you can't surrender to your rage Ben. I did that with lumiya, and all it did was make me weak."
True. Anger empowered a young Obi-Wan against Darth Maul. But the older Obi-Wan who had gained proper focus was put off balance and starting losing the fight when CW Maul was bringing out his anger.
On the other hand, keeping composure but getting rid of the whole "Jedi Restraint" thing is bound to boost performance.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Feb 26th, 2013 at 01:13 PM
Don't know enough of Caedus' feats, but I do know Mara was kicking his ass for a good portion of their fight, though I guess most of that was due to circumstace.
I'll vote for Yoda just 'cause.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Mara certainly used the surroundings against him, but she also out dueled and out fought him. She was superior throughout the entirety of the fight, which is why how she died was so freaking weak.
Nothing in that series to me suggested that Caedus was on Yoda's level in any way in the arena of combat. He as good, but not capable of defeating Sidious, Windu, or Yoda good.
That's not interpretation that's what text says. Yoda caused him to almost fall from platform and Sidious dropped lightsaber as result. That wouldn't happen, if it was on even ground.
Similarly Kenobi dropped his lightsaber to grab onto something, when Maul Force pushed him.
In either case losing lightsaber is a matter of circumstance rather than saber skill difference.
Yoda jumps around just like in AotC, while Sidious stays statically in one place. In all other fights Sidious relied on foot work and acrobatics.
And yes, it was his choice and it gave him edge in Force fight.
They never had fair fight. First fight happened through illusions and Jacen was at disadvantage because of lack of gravity in his place.
And this fight wasn't fair either. Jacen wasn't prepared not physically, nor mentally, when Luke suddenly attacked him from behind and as result scored a lightsaber gash in kidney, which gave him even more advantage. It could be argued that the wound gave Luke no advantage because Jacen draws on pain but I have evidence that it isn't so:
"A sudden infliction of pain could surprise him, surely. But it couldn't keep him down.
He let the pain flow through him as though it were the Force. He internalized it, experiencing it as an old friend-albeit an old friend he didn't necessarily want visiting him too often.
He stood and moved forward. His first few steps were awkward and slow, his later ones sure, and once he was in full mastery of his body and the pain that suffused it, he put on a burst of speed in traditional Jedi fashion, outracing the blaster bolts that tailed him."
This proves that Jacen cannot overcome pain instantly and explains why fight with Luke at the beginning was onesided. Jacen used wines to get some time to regain his composure and after that he is able to seriously batter Luke in return.
Luke wasn't refering to combat. After he killed Lumya, he found out that she wasn't the murderer, which put Luke only into farther depression. As of actual fight with Lumya on opposite Luke performed better against her than before:
"He'd relied on the shoto as an extra weapon in the past to counter the whip's twin elements of matter and energy, but he was flooded with a new confidence that he could take her with just the lightsaber that had always stood between him and darkness."
And how you define "most lethal performance"? I define it as fighting much more aggressively than usually. Fight against Jacen was the most aggressive and he utilized far more dirty techniques than ever before.
Maybe you meant best perfrormance? If yes, then there is absolutely no way to prove, if Luke's past performances were any better than this one.
One of Luke's best performances was against Slayers. Yet, Jacen and Jaina fought them too. Yes, Luke killed more than them but that's rather small difference in performance. But keep in mind that both twins weren't as skilled at the time. Jacen in one of the NJO books stated that he is not particularly good in sabers and never trained as much as Anakin.
Also, I will put accent on Jaina's performance:
"The quartets began to square off with Luke and Jacen, while the larger group formed up opposite Jaina. Seeing that Luke and Jacen were the stronger fighters, the slayers had decided to reserve most of their might for the Jedi they perceived as being the weakest, guessing that Luke and Jacen would always go to Jaina's aid before attempting to reach Shimrra." - this proves that Jaina was hardpressed more than Luke and Jacen, so logically she would kill less as she had to fight more defensively to survive. Moreover, she withdrew from fight right in the middle. Nevertheless, this feat shows that all three are very close in combat skill.
Continue with Jaina. Despite her already demonstrating close to Luke saber performance in YV war, she improved even more. She kept drilling saber skill with Zekk and undergone Mandalorian training in order to confront Jacen. Yet, in final battle she barely won and even with only one hand Jacen still had apper hand in saber fight for the most part:
"A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force. He fought to keep his advantage, dancing back and forth behind his crimson blade, anticipating her every move-and making her pay for each step with a painful kick or elbow strike".
Finally this:
"Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.
But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh. Luke smiled at the man".
Both Jacen and Jaina proved to be far superior to Kyp. He lost fight against single Alpha infected Slayer, while they engaged multiple healthy Slayers and even killed some. Jaina specifically had around 7 Slayers attacking her at the beginning. And Jacen demonstrated more impressive performance against Katarn aided by three JK than Luke against this Sith:
"In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even
...
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me". - only because of coordinated team work Katarn lasted as long as he did.
As you see all direct and indirect performance comparison implies that Caedus is on level with Luke.
Last edited by Arhael on Feb 28th, 2013 at 04:08 PM
I like how Arhael puts it.
Feb 24th, 2013 02:30 AM
