Urgh, can't you just look through a few threads? Vitiate has the most powerful Force Lightning in the mythos and can destroy a massive temple while exhausted, cut in half and on deaths door. And the HoT beat him while in a Darkside Nexus.
Even if you don't think either can beat them individually, Vitiate can dominate their minds while the HoT holds them off. S/he's shown to be very powerful defensively and could easily hold off team 1 for the few seconds it takes for Vitiate to mindfvck them. Hell, Darkside HoT is shown to have incredibly powerful telepathy. They could just do a 2x Mindfvck combo.
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Last edited by Nephthys on May 12th, 2013 at 04:46 PM
Palpy's lightning is definitely in the top 3, but to my mind he's never equalled Vitiate in taking down an entire strike team with it, plus being called greatly more powerful than Nyriss' own lightning, which was powerful enough to shred through a force barrier and still possess the power to vaporise.
Didn't they manage to resist it for some time? They weren't taken out instantly, if I recall correctly, but I'll re-watch the video later.
But Palpatine has reduced three dark prophets to skeletons with a single blast, using only one hand.
Palpatine's lighting was potent enough to scorch a giant sith spawn (which are usually pretty durable creatures) to ash. has ko'd Yoda with a single blast. Has blasted Yoda's saber completely out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Mace's saber defense despite while pretending to be weak, whereas both Revan and Hot were able to handle Vitiate's lightning with their blades.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
BTW I’m about to go out, so if you reply, I’ll answer it some other time.
Oh, but I have. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Especially the one that we discussed a few months ago. But you conceded that debate… and now you come back with the same crap?
Nothing from what I’ve seen suggest Vitiate or HoT are above team 1 in combat.
Prove it.
Did he destroy it? Where is the proof? And no, Scourge mumblings do not qualify as such.
The Tempest asked you for evidence and you have given none. I also presented a video from the game where the temple is still standing after Vitiate’s death.
So …. Windu can't replicate that? You know, the same Windu who overpowered “the most powerful Sith Lord in history”… Or Dooku who, if on DS nexus, will be amped.
…
In combat scenario? To my knowledge Vitiate never did that. For example: he dominated the strike team afterhe defeated them.
This have been already pointed out by Arhale a long time ago. And Arhael did a commendable job debunking that point.
More powerful that Windu’s / Dooku’s offence?
Addressed above.
And this makes you think that…..wait for it……he will midfvck opponents of team 1 caliber? LOL
Right… so HoT, who is "a powerful telepath”, can suddenly mindfvck Force users of Dooku’s and Windu’s caliber. Okey…
Surely that is why master Tiin, a skillful telepath himself, routinely mindfvcks his opponents. Oh wait...
To sum up: team 1 wins
They are better, more seasoned fighters with vastly superior saber abilities and dangerous Force powers at their disposal.
Windu’s Vaapad and Shatterpoint will reduce Vitiate to tears and Dooku’s “malice made visible” Makashi will make HoT cry out for his mommy.
EDIT: The Tempest & Sidious66 2 x
__________________ Theory is like a box of tools. It must be useful. It must function. And not for itself.
Last edited by axel_jovan on May 12th, 2013 at 05:31 PM
No, but the did not totally resist it. Warren and Leeha were struck and stunned by it and the HoT and Tol Braga were both pushed back. You can even see electricity dance around the HoT from where they were failing to contain it properly. Then his second attack just shreds through and takes them all out.
Those prophets were likely fodder and were not actively resisting it. The Strike Team Vitiate beat were independently confirmed by 2 sources to be the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.
I've never heard anything about sith spawn being especially durable, and I doubt it was a sith spawn. You can fight a Sith Spawn in TOR and it looks like a taranterek, not a big worm.
Thats all very impressive, but not anything to equal Vitiates feat. Yoda was taken by surprise both times and Revan and the HoT resisting him only proves that they are strong, not that he is weak.
I'd forgotten about that. I apologise, but I started working that week and hadn't the time or energy to respond to a full-length argument.
I have.
No, you provided the stock 'you are now in this area' transition. I highly doubt its an actual canon cutscene. Theres no reason for them to stop running when they did other than to justify why the player regains control there. And it ignores the possibility that Vitiate continued to collapse the temple after the 'cutscene' ends.
Whats the point of asking this question when you know my answer? It seems instead of offering a rebuttal you're just blustering about team 1's leet skillz.
Revan and Malak, and he demonstrated the ability in Revan. Can we move on from this? This 'point' was debunked a while ago.
Neither are offensively superior to Vitiate, and even combined, I highly doubt they can get past the HoT fast enough to interrupt Vitiate.
He already has:
5.35
You're obviously going to cry that Tol Braga isn't in their league, but given the fight he gives the HoT right before they defeat Vitiate, that he's the only one who resisted the Emperors first lightning and independently broke free from his mind control other than Revan and that he's the leader of the most powerful Jedi strike team as well as the one the Emperor trusted with his most important plan over all the Sith Lords he commands, I wouldn't say that he's far off. Either way, can you provide evidence for Dooku or Windu's telepathic resistance/ability? Because if not, you have no proof that they could resist it.
But you admit that Vitiate can, right?
You're welcome to your opinion. Personally I don't see Windu getting close enough to employ Vaapad or Shatterpoint, and the HoT has already defeated a far superior Sith to Dooku.
Besides which, I seriously wouldn't rely on the the temple not looking destroyed as evidence. Other players can back this up, but the game has a problem with showing environmental destruction. I've lost count of how many things I've blown up only to have it look fine in the same cutscene, as or after its blowing up, or ordered things bombed and it is anything but. I recall that on Taris I had to track down an entire underground fleet and tag its location for bombing. The cutscene showed a single ship, on the surface, being blown up. Some bombardment. But then, it is just an mmo.
Edit: T-T-T-TRIPLE POST!
Edit: Wait, 'more seasoned fighters?' Vitiate has a thousand years of fighting experience you fool!
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Last edited by Nephthys on May 12th, 2013 at 06:40 PM
I didn't say they successfully resisted it, but it did take some effort and two attacks for Vitiate to overpower all of them. I'm not saying that it wasn't an impressive feat, or that the dark prophets are as good as the strike team. But the fact that Palpatine reduced the prophets to skeletons, using only one, is at least comparable, IMO, considering it took Palpatine no effort at all, and did more damage with a single attack.
While they were not expecting an attack from Palpatine, I doubt their force defenses were lowered, as Vader was about to attack them. Also the prophets were practitioners of sith alchemy, which is said to require a powerful dark side user to master.
According to Wookieepedia, a sith spawn is just a creature that is altered by the dark side, which would logically make them more durable, IMO. Not all sith spawn are the same. The Essential To The Force speaks of living beings that are altered and reshaped into mutants, which Sidious refers to as monsters in his Dark Side Compendium, which I assume is the same thing as a sith spawn
Regardless, the thing was huge, and Palpatine scorched the entire thing to ash.
How was Yoda taken by surprise the second time? He had his saber gripped with both hands, and knew Palpatine had no lightsaber to defend himself with. So what other way did Yoda expect Palpatine to defend himself with? He wasn't taken by surprise. Palpatine's lightning was just too strong for Yoda to defend against with his saber.
And I don't believe Yoda was taken by surprise the first time either; he knew he was facing a sith lord. I just think Yoda underestimated Sidious' lightning the first time. He did put up one hand, seemingly trying to block it, but failed, and was knocked unconscious from a single blast.
Or it proves that Palpatine's lightning is stronger. What strength feats do they have to suggest they are as strong as Yoda, who has overpowered Sidious in a saber lock--the same Sidious who managed to push back Savage with one arm--the same Savage who ragdolled numerous strong force users through sheer strength.
Palpatine's lightning has also melted Vader's mask. If you rewatch the scene where Luke removed Vader's mask, the mask looked deformed and melted. And Vader's mask and armor are altered by the dark side to make it more durable.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Sidious lightning killed Vader quite fast. Vader has tanked lightning from Marek who's done this:
Seeking to stun the beast, the apprentice drew on all the power of the Force and sent a sizzling blast of Sith lightning into the un-armored roof of the creature's mouth.
Every neuron in the bull rancor's brain lit up like a firework. The following seconds were among the worst the apprentice had ever experienced. The bull rancor's convulsions were wild and prolonged. He clung on for dear life, half drowning in blood and half choked by the foul air, with arms and legs bracing him firmly against the heaving, fleshy walls.
-TFU I
A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.
The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.
^^^ I've always seen that as merely idiocy on the part of the Force Unleashed team than anything else. Sidious himself refers to Vader's suit as possessing 'delicate electrical systems'. Vader shouldn't be able to just tank lightning like that.
Well I disagree. I don't see it as comparable at all.
How was Vader about to attacks them? And is there anything indicating that they were even taught in force defenses if they were merely alchemists? Finally, that quote doesn't apply to them unless you have some proof that they 'mastered' it.
And was that creature altered by the darkside? And I don't really agree that it would be more durable if it was. We don't know what that thing was nor what Sidious did or did not do to it.
True, but it was also a worm, and therefore is built for flexibility over durability.
Yoda being surprised is the only way that scene makes any sense since he then managed to block it with his bare hands, which is much harder to do than with a lightsaber.
The only other explanation is that.... its a plot hole. Same with how in the script Yoda disarms Sidious...... and then just jumps away instead of capitalising on his advantage. Maybe we can chalk it up to Lucas' incompetence.
He raised his hand, but it seemed to me to be more as an unconscious 'oh shit' motion than an actual attempt at defense. And again Yoda blocked Sidious' lighning in a later scene with his hands. Him being surprised is the only explanation for why he could do that there and not at the start.
Well I meant in terms of Force strength and proficiency in absorbing/blocking attacks. Remember how easily Revan handled Nyriss' very impressive attack for instance. He was obviously very capable at that sort of thing. Him being able to block Vitiates attacks is hardly a mark against him.
I'm not seeing it. :I
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Last edited by Nephthys on May 12th, 2013 at 07:16 PM
Vader's "delicate electrical systems" is underneath the armor. And Palpatine was explaining what his lightning can do to Vader, and Marek is no Palpatine, obviously.
Are you suggesting that we dismiss Vader's feat of tanking Marek's lightning?
Vitiate required some effort and two attacks in order to successfully overpower the strike team. Palpatine effortlessly reduced three dark prophets to skeleton with a single attack, using only one hand. Maybe the prophets are not as good as the jedi strike team, but the ease in which Palpatine killed them with his lightning, and the damage he caused, is arguably comparable. There is no way you can say one feat is miles ahead of the other. And you suggested that Vitiate has the greatest lightning, which is arguable, is all I'm saying. I'm more impressed with Palpatine's.
Vader only questions them and threatens them for using Maul against him.
Why wouldn't they be taught in force defense (which is one of the most basic applications of the force)? Prophets of the dark side were originally a sith sect formed by Darth Millennial. And they were obviously the ones who trained the cloned Maul in the ways of the force. Palpatine also entrusted the prophets of the dark side with the training of his dark side adepts.
BTW, how powerful were the jedi on the strike team? Were they said to be the strongest (force-wise), or just the order's best? Can you give the quote if you have time? I remember you posted the quote before but I don't remember it exactly word for word.
I concede this part, I'm not entirely sure if they were alchemists.
True, but we know the creature busted through Sidious sith crystal, completely destroying it. The monster was obviously pretty durable, and huge, and yet Palpatine reduced it to almost nothing.
That's not true. It depends on what you're stronger at. Obviously Yoda, despite being a physical beast when enhanced with the force, lacked the strength to hold on to his saber, whereas he did not lack the strength and mastery in the force to absorb Sidious lightning.
What advantage did Yoda have to capitalize on? Yoda jumped away because obviously he felt threatened by Sidious's lightning.
Or a better explanation is because Yoda used both hands then, but only used one at the start.
My point is, Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber completely out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Windu's defenses while pretending to lose his powers, whereas both Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so while on a dark side nexus, which dimishes a lightsiders powers), which, IMO, suggests Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiate's, especially considering that Yoda is possibly one of the most physically strongest force users in the mythos.
And the fact that Yoda managed to handle and redirect Palpatine's lightning, also suggests that his mastery in absorbing lightning is greater than Revan's
May 12th, 2013 02:08 AM
