But he still ALMOST defeated them BOTH. If Kenobi can come close to defeating the brothers, there's no reason not to believe Mace can defeat them. Plus Mace was trouble for Sidious, where the brothers weren't.
Also saying "that's a one off" is total b*llsh*t. Its like saying Anakin beating Dooku was a one off.
This is true, especially considering mace windu was amped more than he ever was fighting Sidious, which most likely will not apply to the same effect vs the maul bros.
No because Kenobi was in a peak state at that point. We're flat out told he was completely ready and focused for the first one on one fight which was pretty equal. But then after Adi died he was EVEN MORE Focused, and that Maul and Opress were not going to defeat him IN THAT FIGHT, IN THAT SITUATION. So it was clearly a context specific one-off while Kenobi was in a peak state.
Just like Ventress knocking out Kenobi in seconds while fighting off Skywalker, and then force choked them both was a one off context specific win while she was in a peak state.
Just because Sidious force smacked the Brothers all over the place, doesn't mean Mace can. In force powers Sidious > Mace > Maul. In Sabers Sidious also has various advantages over Mace given how he Blitz Tiin, Kolar and Fisto without Mace being able to do a damn thing about it. And guess what? Pretty much no one here thinks Mace would blitz those 3 in a fight.
No, because Skywalker has consistently stalemated Dooku in TCW, even seeming to have the edge at times.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 19th, 2013 at 08:41 AM
Maul has ZERO edge overall. Get this through your guy's heads... Kenobi holds the ONLY decisive resounding... cutting somebody in half victory between the two. It's kenobi who holds the edge.
Please show me Filoni sayins kenobi beating them was a one off and wouldn't happen again. If not, stop giving me your conjecture on the matter as proof. We saw kenobi do it, and I see so reason why he couldn't do it again sometimes.
Yeah that's why he's beaten Kenobi twice and Force TK'd him around twice, and has greater Force feats over him too
Get this through your head- Kenobi only beat Maul WITH THE AID OF QUI-GON JINN. He had zero chance on his own in that victory you call decisive.
He said the brothers could not beat Kenobi IN THAT FIGHT IN THAT SITUATION. Ergo it was a one off. You only have to see their other fights to flat out see it was a one off.
Kenobi's good, but he's no Sidious to think he can defeat Maul and Opress combined on any given day.
Actually he's that good to be able to be them on any given day.. ya know.. because he DID beat them on any given day.. thus could do it again. Nobody is saying he could do it all the time.. but he is certainly capable of duplicating the feat.
It matters less that he used Jinn saber because Maul had the HIGHER GROUND and Kenobi had NO WEAPON. To get tooled like that is just a tooling no matter how you slice it. Maul had the advantage and a great position and still couldn't react fast enough to a speed attack from kenobi. Yes, that is clearly the most decisive victory between the two.
Just as Maul, Opress and even Ventress are capable of repeating their feats of defeating Kenobi. Ventress has done it while battling Skywalker and Kenobi once and actually put Kenobi down in seconds. So what?
I don't see you ever using that as evidence of how superior Ventress is over Kenobi.
So he cut him without a weapon? No he cut him using Jinn's Saber as you very well know. How does that not matter when that's the only reason Maul went down?
And why did he have the lower ground in the first place? Why did he lose his weapon in the first place. Oh that's right, it was because Maul threw his butt down that hole.
LOL @ you trying to make it some sort of speed blitz. Kenobi simply took Maul by surprise, because Maul had no idea Kenobi had a weapon and was watching him jump up thinking "what the f*** is he doing?"
LOL That PIS surprise victory is like the least reliable way to judge a Maul vs Kenobi fight.
And when are you going get it through your head that Kenobi didn't fight that fight or even win it on his own. Heck he even used Qui-Gon's weapon for the final move because he lost his own being as outclassed as he was.
He simply stood no chance at all of winning that fight without Qui-Gon's presence.
Heck the novel outright confirms that Kenobi was not even Qui-Gon's equal at the time, and that the 2 of them together were outmatched by Maul. At best together they were Maul's equal.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 19th, 2013 at 10:48 PM
^Maul was clearly above the Duo. He also had a broken ankel as well. I seem to remember Maul chopping down Qui Gon in 29seconds when Qui Gon came at Maul with everything he had. Qui Gon>>>>TPM Kenobi so....
In TPM the duo really stood little chance against Maul, much less Kenobi alone. It was luck, and overconfidence on Maul's part that led to Kenobi's victory and survival.
In Season 4, Maul is able to outperform Kenobi in their battle, however it should be noted that Kenobi was emotionally unstable at the point, realizing that the Sith that killed his master is still alive and has come back to haunt him.
In Season 5, Kenobi was able to successfully outperform both Maul and Opress. However, it's noted that they may have not been performing at their best due to the enclosed space making it harder to work around each other. However, this is still a solid feat, and a showing of just how cunning Kenobi is, switching up his style of combat to surprise his opponents. And you know, two lightsabers didn't hurt.
I'd say by Season 5 Maul's still a tad above Kenobi, considering his greater mastery of the Force and at least close skills with a lightsaber, honestly. Though, considering Kenobi's improvement since Season 1 (Almost a year and a half before S5), it's possible that he's surpassed Maul by the time of RotS (a bit less than a year after S5?) Though this is only speculation on my part.
Mace with only a single lightsaber shouldn't be able to defeat the Brothers. With two, he's got a good shot.
I wouldn't go that far, but Qui-Gon was > Kenobi at that point.
Newguy01 Your whole post is pretty spot on.
Yes in the Revival 2 on 1 fight, Kenobi did completely switch Lightsaber technique/Style. From single saber defensive, to dual saber offensive. That change did completely take the brothers by surprise(confirmed by the novel). But yes all credit to Kenobi for that. He finally showed not only his tactical cunning, but his true Saber prowess and the variety to his sword skills.
Although it should be noted just as Kenobi was not in the right mind set in S4, Maul did not seem in the right mind set this time. He says when the Jedi arrive "No not yet I'm not ready." And before retreating admits to Opress "this plan has failed." (Kenobi probably got to him with the "Hanging with pirates now, oh how the mighty Sith have fallen" line). He just realized his whole planning needs rethinking. Which Sam Witwer confirms in front of Dave Filoni that this Maul still wasn't quite back to his prime, still making mistakes.
I believe Season 5 is set mere months before ROTS.
Kenobi's feat over Maul and Opress is probably his best Saber feat to date, and Kenobi clearly didn't improve in the Force seeing how easily he was Force stomped by Dooku in ROTS.
So I'm inclined to believe ROTS Kenobi is = TCW S5 Kenobi.
Even Ventress has on multiple occasions used Jar Kai to engage both Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously, even though one on one she's clearly not above either of them.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 20th, 2013 at 08:24 AM
Get this through your head... Kenobi COULD do that again and that is all that matters. Sure, Opress, Maul and Ventress might be able to beat Kenobi again but it's not likely. This master Kenobi not Ataru Kenobi. SOresu master Kenobi has zero losses to any of these clowns.. and that is the best Kenobi. Shit, Padawan Kenobi already beat the best version of maul
So what If Jinn's weapon was sitting there. When you get into a fight... and there is a stick lying around and someone uses it... well that is just how it goes. As Ras said in batman "mind your surroundings". In comic book fights people pick up thigns all the tim lying around.. we don't go.. well the only reason they won is because they picked up that car and throw it at him. Umm yeah, and the other person was unsuccesful in using his surroundings and dodging the attack or trying to use it first.
Getting treated like a weak feeb and totally tooled can never be a sign of superioity. Either you're saying Maul's precog is absolute garbage or he's a weak feeb or both. He had PLENTY of time to SEE kenobi flying up... hear and see him call the saber to his hand and ignite it. So which do you prefer.. he has no precog or it's shit or his reflexes are shit? I think it's both xonsidering how he was tooled but pick one.
You act like Maul tooled kenobi in sabers.. it was in fact kenobi who outdueled maul... He disarms him of one of sabers.. something maul NEVER did with his saber skills. The only reason kenobi was done there was because maul had to TK him down there and it disarms him in the process. He didn't beat him in sabers and couldn't even disarm him with his saber... something kenobi did. Mind you this was Ataru Padawan Kenobi.. not the beast that is Soresu Master kenobi.
Yes getting beat by Padawan Kenobi while in an advantagous position with your opponent is unarmed.. yes that is a clear decisive victory. About as decisive as you can get when you're cut to the size of a midget by an unarmed padawan while you had the higher ground.
LOL So you want me to get your Kenobi wankage through my head? No thanks.
LOL How is it more likely that Kenobi would defeat Maul and Opress combined again than it is that Maul, Opress or Ventress could defeat Kenobi again?
LOL @ Master Kenobi having Zero losses to any of those clowns. Here are the fights:
Nightsisters - He clearly lost to Ventress in a few damn seconds!
Revenge - Opress disarms him in a few seconds.
Revenge- Kenobi is losing to Maul one on one.
Sith Hunters- Maul Force tools Kenobi.
Even Revival- The first one on one, neither Maul or Kenobi beat each other. Even the 2 on 1 you continually wank over, Kenobi NEVER actually put Maul down in combat. And heck it was actually Maul who put Kenobi on his Ass TWICE!
Your being completely ridicluous. The point of Qui-Gon's lightsaber is all too relevant when he couldn't even have got that far in the first place without Qui-Gon, and even NEEDED his lightsbaer for the finishing move because he lost his own. How did he lose his own? Oh that's right IN COMBAT WITH MAUL. That's CLEAR PROOF that Kenobi had ZERO chance of winning anything without the aid of Qui-Gon. You talk about watching your surroundings- It's not like it's f****ing normal for a frigging Lightsaber to be hanging around! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD THAT THERE'S NO POSSIBLE WAY PADAWAN KENOBI COULD HAVE WON IF QUI-GON WAS NOT THERE TO AID HIM.
Maul had no idea Kenobi had a Lightsaber as it came into his hand when he was right on top of Maul. LOL @ you trying to make it some kind of speed blitz! Hmm I wonder why Kenobi didn't just speed blitz Maul at the beginning of the fight. Actaully I wonder why Kenobi didn't just speed blitz Maul 13 YEARS LATER, when he's now a frigging Jedi Master, if he could Speed Blitz him as a Padawan!
I never said anything about PURE SABERS! Close combat is close comabt, and it includes Saber slahses, kicks and Force pushes. He got plenty of Kicks on Kenobi which put him on his ass. His final move was a force push instead? So what? Your really stretching now KT.
LOL So Kenobi cut him without a waepon! LOL. KT your talking total crap now, and I refuse to carry on this crap until you at least agreee to be a little damn reasonable. Anyone who thinks TPM Kenobi is > TPM Maul is frankly very stupid. In fact it's OUTRIGHT CONFIRMED he wasn't even a match for TPM Qui-Gon. It's also OUTRIGHT CONFIRMED that Qui-Gon and Kenobi together were barely a match for Maul. But don't let things like Canon Facts get in your way KT!
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 20th, 2013 at 06:27 PM
Funny enough... Maul never disarms kenobi with his saber in a strict saber duel.. Mind you this was Padawan Kenobi using (not even mastering) ataru. Yet, Kenobi is able to partially disarm Maul with his saber. Yes, if a Padawan can move too fast for you to react while on lower ground with no weapon.. either your reflexes are absolute shit or you have shit for precog or both.. Which is it?
So which is it? Bad reflexes or horrible pre cog or both?
Ahhhh the faulty PIS argument when people don't have a leg to stand on.. Love those. Just like it was PIS Sids and Yoda were fighting on the pods edge or else Yoda was just about to overwhelm Palps and the script notes.. "The emperor seems doomed".. Just like it was PIS that Kenobi barely didn't make it past the forcefield to help his master before he died... Just like it was PIS anakin stopped Mace from killing Palps... Just like it was PIS when Anakin killed Dooku that he had expended force reserves fighting off Kenobi and Anakin first... You can literally find PIS stupidity in any fight in any genre... What we do know and what we do have.. is Padawan kenobi without a weapon.. in a horrible position.. pull off a move so quikcly that Maul couldn't even react to in time and cut him in half. OWNAGE
Yes obviously Maul's reflexes are no match for TPM Kenobi's speed. That's why he blitzed Maul at the beginning of their fight in TPM, and again in TCW episode Revenge, and again in the episode Revival. Oh no wait..
Surprise attacked while being an arrogant cocky ass distracted by his own awesomeness instead of just killing his opponent there and then. Exactly the same way Vader killed the Emperor. Unless your going to claim the Emperor also lacks Precog now?
Aug 19th, 2013 01:29 AM
