2 Leneer kills Ventress with the force and then loses to Surik
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
The Exile's level of skill seems to fluctuate here tbh
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Well, under normal circumstances I'd assume this to be the current version of Meetra Surik who loses to either decisively. She's only slightly worse than Aryn as a swordsman, if at all, and faster, but she's considerably inferior in the Force. And her only edge over Ventress is speed - she's behind in all other categories.
Ventress is the most skilled, Aryn is the most powerful. The bloodlust makes Aryn's edge more apparent, so she definitely has a solid chance of winning in round 2, but in round 1, Ventress outskills her.
If this was KotOR II Exile, I'd place her above the others, but the simple matter of fact is that Karpyshyn omitted much of her characteristics and many of her abilities in the novel and just made her a fairly fast and skilful Jedi (but an average one nonetheless).
I'm aware of all her showings, but as I said, if this is Meetra Surik from Revan, she loses. KotOR II Exile is very versatile, adaptable, skilful and powerful. She has the benefit of causing effects with just her presence alone. So she could beat either.
Last edited by SunRazer on Apr 26th, 2015 at 10:15 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Your problem is your need to differentiate between the two, they are halves of a whole and her entire feats must be applied for objective debate. Her Revan appearance actually solidified her place in the mythos. Her defeat on a Dark Side nexus against a Dark Councillor of great prestige because of a speed disadvantage is hardly a sign that she is 'average'.
I will never fail to be baffled by this mentality that Revan was extremely powerful(he was) and yet the likes of Traya, Malak, Atris, Surik, etc... are all weaksauce.
The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide states abundantly, as Ant has posted repeatedly, that the Jedi Order of the era were the most experienced and combat-tested of any iteration. Not to mention direct statements that Revan and Malak's Sith Empire was filled with Masters of the Dark Side and the Triumvirate were the strongest of those.
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@AncientPower - Not at all - she was clearly depowered in the novel, having lost her status as a Wound in the Force and seemingly losing her Force Bonds, which she uses to empower herself. Or at least that's the reasoning I use to try and explain why she's noticeably inferior to her game incarnation. And try to read my post, because I never said she was an average individual in respects to power or skill, but that she became an average Jedi (ie. no special characteristics or trademarks), where she was once notable for having numerous unique characteristics among Jedi.
The novel makes it clear she's similar to Scourge, who really shouldn't be anywhere near her given her Malachor run. As for Nyriss, Force Speed relates to Force power and is generally related to skill (which also played a factor in the fight). That, and she bluntly overpowered Surik with the Force, despite the fact that both Traya and Sion foresee that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya in the future. And yet she displays no signs of notable Force power in the novel - her sensory powers, her ability to form Bonds, her "aptitude for severing another's connection from the Force", as the KotOR Campaign Guide describes it, are all non-existent in the novel.
I'm aware of everything you claimed, which doesn't make any difference to the fact that Karpyshyn's writing of her simply conflicted with her in-game portrayal in a number of ways. I'm not interested in detailing that here, but the point is that he neglected a number of powers and traits. Further proof of his lack of research is based on the fact that he writes Mandalorian Wars Revan in as more powerful than Nihilus, Traya, etc. which is pretty laughable.
And if you think that I think Meetra is weaksauce in comparison to Revan, then you really shouldn't be discussing Surik with me. For one, I made her respect thread, but additionally, I hold her on par with Revan in sheer prowess with a lightsaber, which as far as I know, is a virtually unsupported notion among others. I rate her very highly. The same goes with Traya and Atris, whom few others (or Atris, at least) rank highly. So I'd suggest that you stop implying that I hold her in little regard or that I'm unaware of her combative abilities - because I can assure you that I have her higher than 90% of this board at the very least.
But as I said, Meetra Surik's novelized incarnation simply does not reflect her true combative potential. Drew loves to write about form switching and mastery (which he mentions for Scourge in Revan), yet he neglects to mention it for a master of all seven forms? He also neglected her mastery of the Force forms, and, as I said, her sensory powers, talents in Sever Force, ability to form strong Force Bonds quickly (now, this is tied somewhat to her Wound in the Force status, which was gone by the Revan novel, but Surik was still famous for her Bonds before becoming a Wound in the Force).
This is why I specifically mentioned "current" Surik losing to them, but Prime Surik (ie. KotOR II) would beat either.
Last edited by SunRazer on Apr 26th, 2015 at 12:24 PM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Drew Karpyshyn's novel cannot just over-write what we know is fact from numerous sources concerning her already established prowess. This problem arises repeatedly in the NJO era, Jaina Solo being a hilariously bad example of lazy author research. Yet we don't claim Jaina can't fly just because Traviss was and is an imbecile.
Also my supplementary comments was a general view of fan interpretations, not directed at you alone. Malak for example has been shat on endlessly simply because he isn't Revan, as has every other KOTOR character. KOTOR is not the only era in which the fanbase has done this without reason.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
I think AP and SunRazer are actually agreeing on everything, it's confusing me.
The difference between the two is that SunRazer acknowledges that Revan!Surik is weaker than Malachhor!Exile and thus should be treated as a different entity in debates, to which I agree.
The problem I have is everyone decides to use Revan!Surik just to shit on her. When you hear Kenobi you don't thknk ANH just because it's the latest we've seen him. When you see Ventress you don't assume the dark Jedi warlord of Rattatak, so why assume it's the weakest version of Surik?
On that basis, the exile wins.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
The issue for me is that nothing in the novel points to how Surik is so much weaker than she was in the game. Nothing points to having declined significantly in power, so outside of fan theories we can't separate the two that easily.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Meetra does not lack Force feats, we know what her powers are and they are better than anything Leneer or Ventress has displayed, Ventress can TK her all she likes but Surik can cut her off from the Force.
Meetra was a symptom of Malachor V and only felt sick on the planet whereas according to the lore almost every other single Jedi immediately turned to the Dark Side. Evidently Surik does not display any signs of her symptom after that point, I would say much as she was immune to Nihilus and Traya's Force Drain variant, she was also largely resistant to Malachor's effects.
No she asks a Mandalorian how to fly a ship despite being an ace pilot with near a decade's experience, Corran Horn is another good one.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Apr 26th, 2015 03:27 AM
