Ranks do not mean much. People underestimate an average Jedi Master as well.
Bastilla Shan was a powerful Jedi during that time. Making her irrelevant for a while by freezing her in a spot (alongside another individual) is really impressive when we know that she could do the same to other Jedi.
Really? How many have repelled a Lightsaber-throw attack?
Ah! The feats based trump card...
@The_Tempest? Didn't I tell you this?
1. She is officially recognized as a powerful Jedi; implying that she would have impressive Force abilities.
2. She prevented Revan and Co. from arresting her on Lehon (by knocking them out with a Force-wave) and later on blocked Revan's companions from entering her chambers with exception of Revan.
I doubt this! We haven't seen much from Darth Malak in this area but he should be formidable in the use of Telekinesis.
Darth Malak choking two Jedi simultaneously on the Star Forge:
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This showing is years before his prime:
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So the Jedi Order are stupid enough to send Revan to fight Sith when he is not prepared for the challenge?
Really?
Darth Malak have the option to freeze Savage Opress in place and then chop his head off.
Or
Darth Malak also have the option to use powers such as Force Drain and Force Lightning to great effect against Savage Opress to weaken and eventually overwhelm him.
No, they are useful. However, there is a need to focus on ambiguities.
Plo Koon might be counted among the most powerful Jedi but we don't know where he actually stands in the big picture with this bit of information. To address this ambiguity, we look into his feats and performance (in general).
Besides usual stuff, I noticed Plo Koon disarming Aurra Sing, killing droids and criminals, and holding his own against Asajj Ventress (while being injured). However, we have evidence of him loosing to Savage Opress, so we have an indication from this that where he might stand.
Savage Opress is good (no doubts about this). But I don't perceive him to be among the most powerful Sith; he never even acquired the mantle in the first place. His losses to real Sith like Darth Maul, Count Dooku and Palpatine imply that he was not up to the mark.
On the other hand, we have Darth Malak who not just became a Sith but proved his mettle by ruling an Empire in an era when multiple masters of the Force co-existed with him and were members of his Empire. Other Jedi attempted to stop him (including powerful Bastila Shan) but only Revan succeeded. This is a measure of his strength.
You say that Plo Koon is counted among the most powerful Jedi ever?
Well, Bastila Shan is considered to be in the league of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi:
Bastila could be thought of as a second-tier Jedi. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.
Taken from Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 6
See above
See above
There might be one person but it isn't Savage Opress.
It is a meaningless/poorly written statement.
You are not a master until you achieve refinement.
Savage Opress is good; never doubted this. But these showings aren't something that a Dark Lord should not be capable of. I am looking at the bigger picture here.
Darth Malak proved to be worthy of being a Sith Lord (not just being a Sith Lord but also proved himself worthy of being referenced among the greatest Sith) and examples of his powers were cited by even the likes of Darth Plagueis while instructing his apprentice.
Savage Opress was a Sith wannabe and died as as Sith wannabe (personally admitting his lack of ability). At least, he had the courage to admit his shortcomings.
Look at this:
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All of it is relevant! Freezing (powerful) Bastilla Shan [alongside Carth Onasi] and then multi-tasking by trapping Revan into a whirlwind of energy! It is a really impressive showing.
Bastilla Shan/Revan/Carth Onasi collectively > Darth Malak too. Didn't stop him from schooling them with a good strategy.
Savage Opress's choke-hold on the duo of Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku was a temporary gain for him or you think that he would have choked both to death?
At maximum, the aforementioned feat implies that he can put Darth Malak in a chokehold but he isn't gaining anything from it because Darth Malak will eventually resist it and resume spanking.
Yes.
You need to prove that Savage Opress can resist powers of Darth Malak in the first place. You can't.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 13th, 2016 at 04:52 AM
Ranks actually mean a lot. If Bastila had the control and focus to be a Jedi Knight or a Master, she would have been one. Instead she's a 19 year old, who's hot headed and with no actual showings to back up your hype. It doesn't guarantee inferiority in power, but given she has no showings, at all, to show why we should give her the benefit of the doubt, I won't.
He didn't repel it; you're ignoring the limitations of the game's engine to support your argument. Malak I mean it looks like it hit him square in the face, sparks fly and everything, but I'm guessing that didn't actually happen, otherwise he'd have blocked sabers on the several other occasions where that would have come in handy. Like when Revan chopped his face in two.
The first one isn't even a feat, and most of her accolades for power are because of her battle meditation. The second is her running away, with just minutes later she is shit stomped, all of this is after her being captured anyway, so it's not a bench mark for her being stunned before.
Did you just put choking two no names and pushing a random over Savage TKing Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and squads of droids? And shuttles? And dozens of soldiers? Really? Not to mention this:
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or this:
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being far superior showings.
They didn't send Revan to fight Malak, or any other Sith for that matter. They sent him to find the Star Forge, kek. He obviously wasn't prepared to fight Malak without his memories, which is why he lost on the Leviathan, only making gains against him as his memory returned and he trained with the Sith on Korriban.
Yes.
Sure, unless Malak isn't immediately TK'd and pressed by Savage in sabers. Which would happen because Savage is a much more dominating opponent than Revan, and Savage wouldn't just stand there like Revan constantly does.
Or, since Malak doesn't have Lightning remotely comparable to Dooku, Savage uses his lightsaber to block it, immediately goes in for sabers, overwhelms Malak like even Revan is able to do while Malak's amped, TK's Malak into submission, and then kills him.
Last edited by FreshestSlice on Apr 13th, 2016 at 04:50 AM
Wherein did I mention anything about their power? I'm just saying that they're no less of wannabee Sith than Savage.
Oh, and they challenged the Jedi Order because the Order was heavily fractured from the Exar Kun War and the Mandalorian Wars. They didn't even get time to recover from the latter before Revan came back with half of their own army turned against them.
His response to me was on the first page, my response was merely delayed. Not that it's exactly relevant to the topic anyway.
Also, kek @ Malak draining anything. The only things he could Drain were half-dead Jedi inside stasis machines that he admitted transferred the energy to him anyway. It's probable that he knows Drain but can't even use it in a fight (ala Bane).
I do not say that ranks are meaningless but they do not tell much about the powerful of a Jedi in general.
For example; Revan became the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy during the era of Mandalorian Wars but he was officially a Jedi Knight at that time. In-fact, Revan got demoted to 'padawan' status during his amnesic state; he was crowned as a Jedi Knight "after" defeating Darth Malak. So should we asume that an average padawan (or every Jedi Master out there) was up to the task?
My point is that the Jedi Order doesn't promotes a Jedi on the basis of his strength in the Force [only].
The Jedi Order had lost a large number of its members during the Mandalorian Wars and the consequent Jedi Civil War; I doubt that ranks had significant importance in such trying times. The Jedi Order might have significantly increased its standards for bestowing higher ranks to Jedi during such trying times; the existing members might have been under pressure for proving their mettle much more-so then their counterparts during peacetime.
Bastila Shan emerged as a powerful Jedi "before" the events of KoTOR:
Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagshipped, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
--
A brash, impulsive, and powerful Jedi, Bastila Shan was gifted with the rare art of Battle Meditation. By concentrating on the lives around her, she could bolster the resolve of her allies while disheartening her enemies.
Taken from Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 6
I am not ignoring the limitations of the game engine. I believe that the KoTOR doesn't do justice to its scripted action-sequences; similar action-sequences would look much more impressive in mediums such as novels and/or big-budget videos. However, we have common-sense.
This looks like a successful attempt to repel a lightsaber-throw attack to me:
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Darth Malak had (most likely) grown in power since the time of his duel with (Darth) Revan. The former might have acquired new abilities and powers since and boasted with confidence that he have surpassed (Darth) Revan.
Yes, but you missed the point.
Regarding power;
Bastila Shan is recognized as a powerful Jedi in general sense; her proficiency in Battle Meditation was a bonus and largely hyped separately.
For example:
Master Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendant of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though there is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Another;
"You and Bastila share a powerful connection to the Force, and each other." (Master Zhar Lastin)
And another;
"She is strong in the Force, but she is also impulsive, willful and proud - as you once were, Revan." (Master Jolee Bindo)
In summary; Bastila Shan was strong in the Force, a powerful Jedi [and] arguably peerless in the use of Battle Meditation.
Of-course, she would run away from 3 battle-hardened opponents in a confrontation (one of them an absolute powerhouse; Revan); many would in her position. However, she was powerful enough to affect even the likes of Revan with her powers and this is important revelation. It is certainly a benchmark for her, and a good one.
Now this is the problem, friend. Your perspective is utterly subjective here.
Those two Jedi were powerful enough to reach the position of Darth Malak before even Revan could. You may assert that Revan was facing much greater opposition but I don't think that Darth Malak would leave the entire factory defenseless to stop a single individual; he was fully aware of the fact that other Jedi had boarded Star Forge and will be advancing towards him.
You also make it sound like as if affecting the likes of Count Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, droids and shuttles is impossible task for a Sith Lord who is touted among the most powerful ever?
Those demonstrations are meaningless in a discussion involving powerful Force-users. The shuttle was already positioned near the edge of the cliff and it was easier for Savage Opress to throw it from the cliff in that position. Similarly, shattering windows and killing a Mandalorian is supposed to be impressive? These aren't impossible tasks for (any) powerful Force-user. If Savage Opress could do it, his superiors could as well; this is the point.
Darth Malak affecting the likes of Bastila Shan (a powerful Jedi; considered to be in the league of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi) and Revan (doesn't needs an introduction) - are meaningful demonstrations. They imply that he would have no trouble with affecting the likes of Savage Opress with his powers.
Your responses are devoid of common sense and logic.
Aryn Leener sent 6 Cars of a Tram packing across the hall with her telekinetic abilities in a single attempt; didn't stop Darth Malgus from whooping her @ss later-on. Some authors believe that Darth Malak was more powerful then Darth Malgus.
Come-on, friend. You can do better.
I am aware of the story but this is not entirely true. They were grooming and training Revan for the challenges that lay ahead and they had hope that Revan would eventually defeat Darth Malak.
Revan has to undergo Sith trails on Korriban because he had no other way to reach the Star Map that was located inside the tomb of Naga Sadow. This was a bonus for him, not a requirement.
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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 13th, 2016 at 07:03 AM
Legend, I hope you're aware that "being strong in the Force" and "being a powerful Jedi" are two of the most generic and (on these forums) meaningless accolades in SW history?
I still come across few names who are touted as such, at-least in the SWTOR era. Nonetheless, context is important:
It is generally understood and assumed that Jedi Knights and Masters are generally strong in the Force (in comparison to majority). However, when a character is singled-out among them for similar hype then the intent is that this one is a stand-out. This is not an assumption; I have evidence for this.
Moreover, I have offered much more then that.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 13th, 2016 at 07:15 AM
It is important to focus on the 'context' of revelations.
Here is a generic assessment of the competence of Jedi Order during Revan's era:
Now, when Bastila Shan is in focus in the text, she is (logically) being promoted as a 'standout' among all. There are additional revelations that imply as such:
Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.
From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
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Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exemplar.
From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
--
Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagshipped, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
In each example, you clearly see that Bastila Shan is being promoted as a standout among the Jedi. A source even promotes her as being in the league of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi (we have a quantifiable revelation in this case).
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 13th, 2016 at 07:44 AM
They don’t need to. They are there to talk about mastery of the Force, not how powerful someone is.
There’s a clear and stark difference from not being a Knight, and not being a Master. Revan can be as powerful as be, but as far as mastery of himself or the Force, he was not ready. Either way, comparing even Bastila to Revan is retarded, as they are as incomparable as can be in that regard.
Sure, and as valid as complete and utter speculation is, it has nothing to back it.
Again, she’s powerful because of her Battle Meditation. She has nothing else to her name whatsoever. Not that being called “powerful” is even an accolade worth mentioning.
Again, no you’re just ignoring the limitations of the engine. Every saber throw in the game looks like that. Every single one. I’m guessing random Sith troopers, who aren’t even Force Sensitive, don’t repel lightsabers.
That’s great, really. She’s still notable only for her Battle Meditation. Being “a powerful Jedi” who’s “strong in the Force,” is accolades that novices get fresh of the boat. Bastila tells the amnesiac Revan he’s strong in the Force, and while he may have great potential, that does not, and never has, translated into realized power or relevancy.
TKing someone while they’re off guard is not nearly as impressive as you, and some other notable members of this board, like to somehow make it out to be. Bastila is no match for the only notable person there. At all. Which is why she is shit on three times in a row by that same person solo, even when she’s amped.
Citation needed. Like holy ****, citation needed. Guess they must have fought Bastila too, lulz.
It is when “the most powerful ever” is an accolade given to Count Dooku and Obi-Wan.
Like the random you presented a picture of?
Something sitting flatly, stably, and plainly on a surface does not make it easier to push, even if a the edge of a cliff is nearby. Like at all.
Apparently it was for Malak. Either way, that prison was made of Mandalorian Iron. It’s impressive.
And you have to prove Malak is Savage’s superior to make this point even remotely relevant, which so far you’ve failed to do with a single feat of TK.
By who? Who puts Bastila in the leagues of Dooku and Obi-Wan. Pretty much no one does that. At all.
Revan wasn’t even as powerful as Revan when Malak faced him on the Leviathan, and like three weeks later he was being killed by Revan, so it’s hardly a point in his favor.
No. No, they don’t.
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What does this have to do with anything at all? The point is Savage has superior TK showings than Malak, so Malak’s TK isn’t a point in his favor. Stop bringing in irrelevancy from SWTOR to make your posts six times longer.
Citation needed. The point was the find the weapon, blow it up, hopefully with Malak on it.
Which really has nothing to do with the point. He still went through the training, and obviously learned more about the Force during the process. The reason he went through the training is irrelevant.
As for your laughing, feel free to provide actual feats and evidence for Malak to counteract my points. Not a bunch of quotes with no substance. Not your opinion. And not another ****ing essay. The fact that I have to sift through five pages of crap, for three paragraphs of actual substance is annoying as hell.
Last edited by FreshestSlice on Apr 13th, 2016 at 07:58 AM
Quoting system not working for me at the moment so your statements will be in simple quotes.
Also, read the entire response before responding this time.
Didn't you assert in another threat that knowledge = power? Now you are distinguishing the two?
The Jedi High Council look into several aspects before selecting a candidate for a higher rank. Otherwise, individuals such as Coleman Trebor would not become a member of the Jedi High Council.
Bastila Shan was a powerful Jedi but she was also brash and impulsive and the Jedi High Council of her era felt that she needed more time to control her emotions. Her promotion would depend upon it.
See above
Fair enough
Let's drop the 'padawan' nonsense and focus on the facts at hand; recognizing Bastila Shan as a powerful Jedi will be start for you.
Where it is stated that she was considered powerful due to her proficiency in a single talent? Don't make silly assumptions. They won't fly with me.
Now pay attention to following revelations:
Master Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendant of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though there is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Another;
"You and Bastila share a powerful connection to the Force, and each other." (Master Zhar Lastin)
And another;
"She is strong in the Force, but she is also impulsive, willful and proud - as you once were, Revan." (Master Jolee Bindo)
Bastila Shan was considered powerful because she was strong in the Force and became proficient in the use of different powers. She was particularly renowned for her proficiency in the use of Battle Meditation.
Assertion such as "She has nothing else to her name" is utterly silly. Nobody is praised for his proficiency in Telekinesis.
Show me an example of a random Sith trooper repelling a Lightsaber-throw in a cutscene.
CONTEXT, my friend. Learn about it.
And same is true for Darth Maul and Savage Opress in comparison to Revan... Shan's inferiority to Revan is not a mark against her.
Most 'are' inferior to Revan.
You explain to me how they got there. Did they teleport into that area?
I am curious! Are you a kid who needs citation to figure things out and lack any logical deductive ability of their own?
Learn to use common sense.
Didn't address my point. Let me know when you have one.
Yes. That too.
This is relevant (and meaningful) demonstration of power however:
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The only meaningful information you can offer is that Savage Opress managed to put Count Dooku in a choke-hold and defeated some Jedi. Nothing else matters in this discussion.
And any "powerful" Force-user could do that.
No, this stuff is beneath him.
Breaking windows is impressive now?
Darth Malak being able to affect powerful Jedi such as Bastila Shan and Revan with his powers, is sufficient proof in my books.
Bastila could be thought of as a second-tier Jedi. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.
Taken from Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 6
Are you not paying attention?
Yes, but Revan was no push-over when he fought Darth Malak for the first time in the game.
And if the time between the first and second confrontation is only 3 weeks then you don't have a solid ground to argue that Revan was significantly weak during first confrontation.
Then we won't get anywhere in this debate.
This is lame argument.
Savage Opress have superior TK showings then Malak so he must be stronger as well?
Jedi Master Orgus Din have superior TK showings then Darth Angral but the latter slaughtered the former in a confrontation.
Right... That's why it was necessary to retrain Revan in the ways of the Force...
Wait:
I agree with Master Dorak. Many of our own pupils are leaving the Jedi Order to follow the Sith teachings, we need recruits to stand against Malak! With Revan dead... (Master Vandar)
--
Together you two may be able to stop Darth Malak and the Sith. (Master Vandar)
You may find more examples.
Fair enough in this case.
I laughed at your silly assumption that Savage Opress is more dominating (and stronger) opponent then Revan. I don't take stupid assumptions seriously.
I have brought on the table what I could. I leave the ball in your court now.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 13th, 2016 at 02:23 PM
Apr 12th, 2016 11:46 PM
