So? Why can't he get decapitated? Most duels conclude with the loser being disarmed or otherwise put in a position where decapitation would've immediately followed if desired anyway. This mildly helps Revan's chances but hardly constitutes a turning point.
Precedent set by Darth Ant: the bar for making an assertion stems is <= Meetra's word, and it's OK to then immediately attach "vastly" to a mere suggestion of superiority, and link "command of the Force" to "raw power", because Ant said so. Never mind that Ant himself has stated his belief that Revan doesn't grow much more powerful between his versions.
On Malachor? Sure. But let's make a comparison relevant to this fight on neutral grounds - Yoda in OCW crashes two massive droid transport ships into one another, a feat far surpassing anything an unamped Nihilus has ever done.
Or that Revan has ever done, for that matter. Isn't it interesting that, despite evidently having no moral compunctions against unleashing his powers or committing genocide, Revan never pulls off any feats within the realm of Malachor Nihilus which you try to powerscale him from? Wouldn't his alleged fleet and planet busting power have come in handy? Why does he need to build a bunch of replicator droids instead?
Oh, right, because Meetra claimed in an offhand thought that his "command of the Force" was the greatest she's ever seen, and this means that his telekinesis surpasses Nihilus's.
At this point, there are so many holes in your argument that I'm probably wasting space pointing out too many of them, lol.
Funny thing that he needs a device to just replicate a small nuke, and that he never replicates this feat, ever. I seem to recall him almost dying to six mandos instead.
Nope, you've stated the reverse - that Revan doesn't grow much more powerful, meaning we just know, even if we take that opinion at face value, that Revan is above Nihilus in "mastery" by some quantity.
Palpatine, meanwhile, is by powerscaling already superior to Nihilus as of TPM, and then grows stronger over thirteen years - that's probably more significant, isn't it?
Wait, that's not it - Palpatine is actually canonically superior to Vitiate as of the prequel trilogy, given that we've established the precedent that you think Meetra's word constitutes proof, so obviously omniscient narrators, like that of the Visual Dictionary or those of the Insider statement that Yoda faced powers "channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history", are at least as valid, and given your own precedent, can be translated directly into combat ability. Vitiate is obviously drastically stronger than Revan, so Yoda by transitive property is stronger than Revan as well. Not to mention that he's also explicitly a legendary, canonically the greatest to his time, actually, lightsaber duelist in history, which would serve as a tiebreaker even if their raw power were comparable.
Well, Yoda's also been outright stated in multiple sources to be the most powerful Jedi in history, and even if you want to play the "Vitiate hadn't been created" game, Revan had, and you don't think he grows that much stronger anyway.
Funny, given that Revan, by any comparison of hype and feats, isn't "vastly" more powerful than Nihilus, which is evidenced enough by the fact that you have to guess Revan's awe inspiring power by scaling him off of Nihilus rather than directly sourcing any instances where he matches it.
Yoda, however, has certainly, you know, matched a guy more powerful than a guy who crushed Revan with a single attack, and thrown around capital ships. Sidious himself has unbalanced the Force itself, created lightning storms by his hologram's presence, and mind-wiped trillions of people. Seems like they beat Revan in feats pretty handily.
Funny; that same source also lists Obi Wan alongside Dooku, suggesting that its definition of "peer" is loose enough that it doesn't really tell us much. Forgot to include that part, didn't we?
Right, because Darth Maul is obviously relevant to this discussion.
Evidently enough, he couldn't, since he didn't create a Death Star to kill Revan.
But precedent: you think hyperbole is to be taken literally. Another shot in the foot; now I can take the description of Luke rooting himself in the Force such that the black hole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him literally (I think it's literal anyway but thanks for rendering that discussion moot).
Kind of makes it tough for me to believe that Revan or Vitiate could do anything to him, when both have been knocked back by attacks much less potent than the gravitational field of a supermassive black hole.
Right, because obviously all of the energy of the star forge was being channeled directly to Malak, and not to powering the station or producing ships as it was meant to do or anything.
Which contradicts your own claim in previous discussions that he didn't, lol.
But nice job just vaguely declaring that he grew "far" more powerful. It still wasn't enough for him to defeat novel Vitiate, who is weaker than TOR Vitiate, who is canonically below Sidious. Sorry, not sorry; you powerscaled horribly, and instead set precedents that turn that own system against you in a pretty hilarious fashion.
Actually, it's never stated that Revan handled the entire blast, just that it backfired; you know, like how a gun can hurt you via recoil, but not actually blow your head off.
Regardless, seeing as how Yoda could bust starships that can withstand teratons of TNT equivalent, and Luke can rip the hulls off of warcruisers, crush sky-scraping fortresses and move singularities that can pull in proton torpedos capable of pulling 30,000 g accelerations and which can themselves yield megatons or gigatons, it's kind of funny that you think either would be impressed by Revan tanking a backlash of a Hiroshima-sized blast, which apparently he was unable to generate on his own power.
Funnily enough, you claim in a later post that SoR Revan is weaker than Revan Reborn. Please try to keep up, sweetie.
Vitiate is also canonically weaker than Sidious, who was statemated by Yoda. Thanks for conceding this line of arguments by canonizing Meetra Surik's opinion.
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Time to lay the smackdown some more. Let's say Revan goes up against Yoda. There are two ways to look at this; powerscaling, and feats. First, powerscaling. We know Yoda is more powerful than Revan in two ways; one, that multiple sources have literally said he's the most powerful Jedi/"foe [of] the darkness" that had lived to his time, and two, that he stalemated the canonical most powerful sith lord in history while Revan lost badly to an automatically weaker sith. But that's just Force power - the further tipping point comes in Yoda's substantially better collected and documented dueling ability, which was once against written as the greatest to his point in history. Revan's has been stated to be good, but hardly the greatest ever. So compounding his advantages in the Force and sabers, Yoda should easily defeat Revan.
What about novel Vitiate and Luke? LOL. Let's look to Vitiate's performance against Revan and see if any of his attacks would work against him. His telepathy? When has he ever dominated anyone as powerful as Luke? Um...never, right? His initial telekinetic attack? Nope - UnuThul's telekinesis couldn't move Luke, who rendered himself literally immovable. His lightning? Revan was able to knock it back on him, so Luke - who by this point has substantially surpassed Yoda - certainly could. Yet Luke wouldn't let Vitiate get back on his feat, given that he was moving too fast vs. Sidious for Leia to perceive in Dark Empire. But even if he could, Vitiate's charged lightning would do nothing against a guy who could move black holes, tear apart sky-scraping fortresses, match Wankatine, and tank the telekinesis of a guy drawing upon the Force potential of trillions. So Vitiate dies.
Luke just has to close the distance (although he could easily win from afar, unless if you can lay out Vitiate's feat which match Luke's best) - and he's fast enough to blitz, especially given novel Vitiate's horrible combat reflexes given his being disarmed by Meetra and knocked on his ass by his own lightning, but he could also employ his own telekinesis, saber throws, electric judgment and Force illusions to distract Vitiate until he can get close and just chop his head off.
That's the tactical analysis - the simpler powerscaling is that we know DE Luke with some potential unlocked by Leia handily beat DE Sidious. Would a half-trained Leia's meditation unlock more potential than decades of growth? Certainly not, and definitely not given that it's stated that NJO Luke "is at the height of his powers". We also know that Luke's potential surpasses Sidious's - and now Luke is almost as old as Sidious was in TPM, when he was already more powerful than Vitiate via scaling from Plagueis, but certainly close enough that Luke should by scaling by far above Vitiate.
So, why don't you try to produce actual feats to put Vitiate on Luke's level? Has he matched Luke's telekinetic powers? His speed? His dueling ability? No? Sucks for you, doesn't it?
So, once again, you have attempted to come up against someone superior to you, and have been put in your place. I would've been nicer about it had you not entered this thread with hostility, but alas, attitudes must be matched to the tempo. But don't worry, you're young, you'll improve. For now, though, you have been thoroughly
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Revan can teleport away in other circumstances. If a disabling blow leads up to a killing blow, he should be fine. I'm also not sure what's stopping Revan from teleporting his lightsaber into Yoda's chest.
Revan's stated to have grown "far more powerful" between the last time Surik saw him and his Reborn incarnation, so nah.
Also, "command of the Force" is synonymous with "raw power" based on other works by Drew. Here's an example:
"Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style."
Nah, the feats aren't comparable. Also, the gravity present on Malachor V easily poses a great enough challenge to negate the buff he would be getting.
Also, Nihilus did this ridiculously far before his prime, so that too.
Nah, you should check back up on Revan. When he waged war, he specifically fought to keep the infrastructure intact so the galaxy could be prepared for a Vitiate invasion, probably hence why he used droids instead of soloing the Republic.
I've yet to see one.
Didn't I already say he didn't need the device to destroy all life with a 1km, but rather used what was available to him?
Plus, he was immensely weakened.
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None that are actually legitimate (aka ignoring kids books that don't feature the EU anyway) since SWTOR, I believe.
Too lazy to read the rest, but I assume it's the Palp > Vitiate > Nihilus argument. Vitiate > Palp so nah. You're quotes are outdated.
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Seems like you bitching.
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Nah, and they aren't capital ships.
With Plagueis and months of meditation, not remotely impressive, over the span of generations.
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Kenobi's a peer and equal to Dooku then - the quote states so. Why the issue?
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I like to reference the names of characters you know about, since you don't know much about SWTOR and KotOR, clearly.
The fact he couldn't be moved doesn't mean he couldn't still be killed. You can cement yourself into the ground with concrete but still be shot with a bullet.
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Malak had total command over the Star Forge. In a battle between life-and-death, he's definitely going to be using it to it's full power. That's the entire point. Revan didn't want to use the Star Forge to it's full power but Malak did. Only makes sense he would be using that here though.
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Revan was channeling the energy within him and then it backlashed within him. What, did some of the energy disappear or some shit?
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All he did was move them into each other. He didn't blow them apart with the Force.
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Given Revan is substantially less than half of his power and can handle Hiroshima-size blasts, yeah, definitely.
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The quote was about Foundry Revan, not SoR Revan. Learn your Revan's, sweetie.
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Outdated.
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Write a tl;dr version. Otherwise I'm going to assume it's discussing why Revan is a solar-system buster and Vitiate can consume the galaxy without a ritual.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: NOTE: To the general public, I'm trolling. I consider Yoda superior to Revan. Just having fun with my foreign buddy.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jun 23rd, 2016 at 02:07 AM
El - give this sort of energy to my posts instead of runnng away with your tail between your legs. Just so I can squeeze some actual resistance from this board.
Now I could absolutely pick-a-part the post in question. But that would be unfair to you. Firstly, it would double your work load. But secondly, it would mean having to deal with another set of philosophies. Which in turn - disallows Ad hominem in it's classical sense - as in the indirect refutation of a claim by proving it inconsistent with other statements or admissions. Simply because I am not Ant, and will not choose to argue on his (or your) terms.
As for you DarthAnt - Ellimist likes to build his arguments like a fortress. If you give him any sort ground (accepting his assumptions) then it will end in your defeat. His argument relies on you accepting various rules, and trying to dispute premises according to his logic. But if you debunk his philosophy, starting with the assumptions and then move into various contradictions that may arise. He is literally impotent.
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Last edited by Ziggystardust on Jun 23rd, 2016 at 02:07 AM
Ant, that response was honestly atrocious. The response on page 1 was glorious, but this one was... terrible. I can imagine why you responded as hastily as you did, but if you weren't feeling up to it, you should have just waited.
The Community (grew show, recommend) and my False Emperor flashpoint I was playing at the same time had priorities.
I'll be sure to make my post extra intriguing next time! I might even bring in those Versus Insiders - oh wait, that's your thing.
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EDIT: There probably won't be a next time though. My point was that anyone can make a retarded argument seem legit if they try (i.e. my opener).
That doesn't mean your good.
Elm should take the hint and cut the slack on the muscle lifting.
Although, if he makes his response tasteful, and he will respond because he's like that, I might respond and see how far I can legitimately carry Revan.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jun 23rd, 2016 at 02:13 AM
I find it amusing that you want to troll-argue to hide the fact that you couldn't win this if you tried - but I'm more amused by the fact that you seem to think your bluff fooled anyone.
Thanks for acknowledging that Foundry Revan > Revan Reborn and < a fodder-level strike team though.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: The difference between my "trolling" and yours is that I never refuse to debate with someone to go trolling instead - I generate my own joke threads but then gladly debate up front anyone who wants to. You seem to just have nothing to contribute but joke posts that are neither funny nor much worse in quality than your serious ones.
Hail Tempest!
EDIT: it's even cuter when you try to tie your trolling into some sort of lesson or moral that you're trying to teach us, and that you think any of us are fooled/impressed.
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Jun 23rd, 2016 01:23 AM
