Plagueis is ridiculously powerful in the dark side, and is certainly >> the opposing team's strongest member, Dooku. He can certainly take on the entire team, whether it be through the Force, or lightsaber combat - and of course, simultaneously.
In terms of overall scaling, Plagueis was the result of direct increase in power from Darth Bane over a thousand years, making Plagueis >>> + in power AND knowledge over Darth Bane. In terms of power, Plagueis has been stated (in-novel) as being sufficiently powerful to contain the full power of the dark side. He had the combined library of a thousand years of knowledge on the Force collected by the Banite line, including the impressive library of Bane himself. This would presumably include Darth Revan's teachings that Bane recorded from his holocron, which contained a plethora of ancient Sith rituals and knowledge scoured from Malachor, Korriban and other Sith worlds. Plagueis' library was one of the finest in the galaxy, which included the Jedi Temple. With all of this knowledge Plagueis had of the ancient Sith, he still knew of no predecessor in Galactic history (and he had knowledge of Vitiate) that matched his power and knowledge in the dark side.
In terms of technical power, Plagueis was genetically engineered by Tenebrous to be strong in the Force, and even then, Tenebrous later found out that Plagueis' potential was far greater than even he had ever known. On top of that, Plagueis was skilled and knowledgeable enough to increase his own midichlorian count. He changed the climate of Naboo, from what I understand without intentionally doing so, a massive feat. Similarly, his library was so strong a nexus in the dark side that Sidious related its power to Korriban, or other similar planets such as Malachor or Ziost, presumably.
It's fair to say that Plagues' overall strength in the force is roughly around TPM Sheev's level, as is indicated by the Plagueis novel and the Luceno's own comments. This power level is certainly above Dooku, Maul and Savage by a long shot, a very long shot. The strongest of the team, Dooku, in no way matches Plagueis' strength and knowledge of the dark side, nor can he even begin to match the Muun's accolades. Maul and Savage are essentially non factors in terms of Force power to contribute, as both have standard and sub-standard Force showings relative to Plagueis. As I see it, there's no reason to believe their combined power would be able to overwhelm Plagueis.
Lightsaber dueling is about the same, really, if a little more challenging for Plagueis. He presumably followed the Banite tradition of learning all seven forms of lightsaber combat; knowledge and training that he'd also pass onto Sidious. He had a distaste for dueling, but Tenebrous deemed him a master regardless. Anyway, Plagueis is about as strong in the force as TPM Sheev, and considering not only Plagueis' presumed mastery of lightsaber combat (as per the Banite tradition), his performance against Venamis, his incredible strength of the Force and Luceno's comment that Plagueis could have beaten TPM Sidious in lightsaber combat places Plagueis beyond Dooku tier. For the record, pre-TPM Sidious was capable of stomping Maul, and as a tier 9 combatant, it's not hard to argue that Plagueis was also tier 9, though not on the level of RotS Sidious or Yoda, tbf. Regardless, the gap between tiers is said to be exponential.
Even if it came to saber combat, Plagueis would be more than capable of quickly killing Savage through the Force at least. Even if Dooku and Maul somehow survive Plagueis' force attack, he can hold off and defeat both of them in lightsaber combat, considering how far he scales as a combatant relative to them, especially Maul.
Nothing to really address here. This is more of a portrait of Plagueis than it is a correlation between him and my team. Yes, Plagueis has exhibited mastery beyond any of my characters. That's why, to compensate, I have three characters. Plagueis exceeding Bane doesn't mean too much. Tyranus similarly exceeds Bane; Maul matches him; and Savage approaches him. Together, my team would annihilate Bane. Neither do I care much for Plagueis' own musings that he was capable of containing the full power of the dark side. In RotS, Dooku gathered the Force around him to an extent that he felt like the axis of the universe.
Maul and Savage are not non-factors at all, in any way. Would they fare well against Plagueis on their own? No. Can they, with Tyranus by their side, pose a threat to him? Yes. Plagueis' power surpasses theirs individually, but together, they can match him.
Since when was mastery of all forms a Banite tradition? Bane practiced Djem So to compliment his physical abilities; Zannah was by Bane told that she would never become physically strong enough to master the form and instead opted for Soresu, which fit her nimbleness more. That Plagueis felt contempt for lightsaber dueling doesn't make him not proficient, but it certainly does not give us any reason to believe he took time to become a master of all forms. Besides, both Dooku and Maul mastered multiple forms (Dooku per Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, and Maul per his Juyo mastery requiring him to do so (Insider 62)). Only Savage does Plagueis for sure eclipse in lightsaber mastery.
So what if Plagueis is beyond Dooku? Dooku has Maul by his side, one of the most skilled, well-trained and dangerous Sith of all time per multiple sources. Why is pre-TPM Sidious' standing next to pre-TPM Maul relevant? This is clearly Maul by TPM, and not from years prior, as written in the OP.
Would Plagueis get the opportunity to kill Savage with a Force attack? Maybe, but you haven't argued how so. Besides, you're scripting the fight to your advantage. You have no idea if Plagueis would initiate the battle with a telekinetic attack. I can draw on various examples of members of my team abusing the Force in combat. Dooku has telekinetically knocked Obi-Wan unconscious; ragdolled Quinlan Vos; strangled Ventress and deprived her of her lightsabers; attacked Anakin multiple times, etc. Savage similarly took advantage of his explosive TK against Adi Gallia, which allowed him to kill her. If Plagueis was ever indicated to have a tendency for utilizing the Force at the start of or in combat more so than my team, let me know. Otherwise, there's as big a chance that my team chooses to engage with TK as there is of Plagueis doing so. If that is the case, I'm not convinced that Plagueis exceeds my team in TK. In lightsaber combat, Plagueis' advantages are power and physical stats. Dooku and Maul supersedes him in skill and have the advantage of numbers. With Savage in there as well, Plagueis' edges are trumped by having to fight multiple adversaries enough for my team to have the advantage. Dooku alone would hold his own against Plagueis. He has the feats and accolades to support such a claim, such as subsisting against Yoda (who is both more powerful and skilled than Plagueis), fighting against Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, easily beating Sora Bulq and Tholme subsequently, not to mention various displays of Force techniques, including telekinetic mastery sufficient to overwhelm Force adepts the caliber of Obi-Wan, Ventress etc. He would provide a good challenge to Plagueis on his own. Maul adds speed, skill and aggressiveness that would increase Plagueis' difficulty of landing a telekinetic hit on them (which is Plagueis' biggest chance of victory, as he lacks the necessary power and skill to defeat them through dueling alone). At last, Savage is sufficiently powerful to increase my teams' output in terms of Force attacks and sufficiently endurant to withstand less concentrated Force attacks from Plagueis, not to mention his relentless mindset. Overall, I see Plagueis as certainly the most powerful of all here, but against three Sith the caliber of my team, he is outmatched in a good fight.
It isn't Plagueis' own musings, IIRC it's actually from the perspective of the narrator. Though we can back this up by pointing out that Plagueis, despite his aforementioned knowledge of the Sith Order knew of no one (including Vitiate) that equalled his power in the Dark Side. Establishing Plagueis' overall power in the Force is important to emphasise just how above the likes of Dooku, Maul and Savage combined he really is. Furthermore, yes, Dooku was powerful, but you've provided no response that adequately explains that the three together would be capable of outmatching Plagueis in the Force at all.
It seems presumable that over time the Banite Sith carried on the knowledge of lightsaber combat in its entirety, including all the forms. Unless there were other ways Sidious was able to master them? Even then, forms don't matter, feats and accolade are far more important. Luceno said that Plagueis could have beaten TPM Sidious in a duel, who is a tier 9 duelist himself (or basically only matched by Yoda at this point). Even if you don't like the tier system, it's still handy in giving a number derivative to the capabilities of some swordsmen. The gaps between tiers was huge. Hence how Dooku (mid/high tier 8) was implied to be capable of taking on AotC Kenobi and Anakin (tier 7's) simultaneously with ease. Similarly, Maul (low/mid tier 8) was capable of taking on a 7 and and 6 simultaneously with relative ease in TPM, though some quotes from the Star Wars Official Fact File state that this was possible due to the saberstaff, which probably made up for the fact that he himself was a lower tier 8 duelist than Dooku. We have to consider though, that the gap between 8 and 9 is the highest. It could then be reasonably be surmised that Plagueis would be more than capable of fending off both Dooku and Maul, whilst quickly dispatching Savage in a few saber strikes before the other two could actually react; similar to how Windu, a very high 8 was completely unable to move quick enough to stop Sidious (tier 9) from blitzing three tier 7's, which is where Savage most likely resides. With Savage down, Plagueis could probably take on Dooku and Maul simultaneously and beat them. Even if he was pressed, he has demonstrated, as in his duel with Venamis, that he was a brilliant tactician in a lightsaber fight, and was capable of planning out a long duel. However, even that duel was WAY before Plagueis' prime incarnation. There's no way the team of three take Plagueis in sabers.
Your last paragraph is basically trying to argue that the fight would automatically default to lightsabers, and that Plagueis wouldn't be able to take the three simultaneously. I won't go into Force arguments, since you're obviously not interested, though again, I cannot see how Plagueis as a likely tier 9 level duelist would be too stymied by Maul's "speed and aggressiveness" to integrate TK into his lightsaber sequences, given as how Maul was at best a low/mid tier 8, and therefore considerably slower than Plagueis in light of this.
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Post-edit
On the forms thing, Plagueis was pretty anal about ensuring Sidious knew how to use each weapon, whether it be a lightsaber, force pike, blaster, rifle, saberstaff etc. and seemed pretty interested in ensuring that Sidious mastered various combat techniques, so that he couldn't be surprised. It makes sense then that Plagueis as a pragmatist was at least a technical master of the seven forms. Also, who did Sidious spar with to learn all seven forms, and who taught him? But as I said this isn't overly important.
Last edited by Meatpants on Dec 26th, 2018 at 02:21 AM
Yes, the narrator who is only privy to the thoughts of the characters. The book is written in third-person limited view.
LOL. So to back up a character opinion, you choose to reference another opinion of that same character? That makes literally no sense. Here, let me provide your quotes.
First off, both of those excerpts are Plagueis' reflections. Arguing on the basis of them would correspond to me bringing up Dooku's opinion that he was more powerful than Yoda. It has zero relevance. Second, the two snippets have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Neither back each other up. Even if Plagueis was objectively the most powerful Sith up to his time, that has nothing to do with him being able to contain the full power of the dark side.
Read your own post again. All you did was assess Plagueis to be more powerful than any of my characters. You practically neglected to account for their simultaneous presence, instead arguing that Plagueis is superior to them individually and that alone is enough to grant him the win. Nothing you said referred to their combined power. On your last point, why would I provide reasons for my team outmatching Plagueis in the Force when I never claimed as much? I ended my post by opining that Plagueis is outmatched in a good fight; I did nothing to restrict that claim to Force-only. It was a conclusion I reached after examining the contributions that each of my combatants provide to the team.
That the Banite line carried on the knowledge of lightsaber combat doesn't necessarily mean that it was a ''tradition'' to master all forms, that's a stretch. Plagueis loathed lightsaber combat and was of the opinion that the new Sith would rule by cunning and fear instead of physical prowess. With that in mind, I see no reason to accept your assumption to be true.
But that is just Luceno's opinion. I respect it, but in truth, it's subjective, and I'm under no obligation to accept it as fact. On that note, other sources have told us that Palpatine killed Plagueis upon becoming powerful enough to do so (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, I believe). So, I question whether Plagueis would beat Sidious. Besides, I can question if TPM! Sidious would beat this team, too.
No, it can't, because Luceno's opinion is the only point that favors Plagueis over Sidious. Besides that, a vast amount of sources have deemed Palpatine the most powerful Sith of all time by the time of RotS; he was certainly beyond Plagueis, so you can't compare the two. That Sidious could blitz the B-team has no bearing on Plagueis' ability to blitz Savage, because Sidious at this point eclipses Plagueis.
Why not? Dooku alone would be a challenge for Plagueis to drop in a duel. As I pointed out, Dooku managed to survive against Yoda for a bit. Yoda is a more skilled swordsman and more powerful Force practitioner than Plagueis per feats and accolades. Plagueis doesn't outclass Dooku to the extent that Maul and Savage are not sufficient to turn the tides.
Actually, my last paragraph was arguing that the notion that Plagueis would immediately KO someone with the Force needed more basis, not that it was necessarily wrong. I'm not particularly uninterested in arguing how they match up as Force adepts. If I was, I wouldn't have elaborated on the point. So if you want to expand on that point, feel free to do so. As for Maul, again, Maul would not challenge Plagueis on his own, but here he is by Dooku's side. He possesses enough skill, physicality and dexterity that his presence decreases Plagueis' chance of directly overpowering my team through superior power, be it in the Force or physically. Savage further adds resilience and potential offensive capacity.
If we take snippets as evidence, then yes, Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord to have lived by his time. If not, it can be reasonably surmised that he either is or is pretty damn close to being so. I see no reason why Plagueis was not capable of being able to carry the full power of the Dark Side; he was capable of, and had, increased his own midichlorian count, i.e. he could strengthen his own connection the Force/potential in the Force at will. Sure, he probably couldn't do that all the time, but even being able to do that is unprecedented. Furthermore, as I've mentioned a bunch of times, Plagueis' depth of knowledge on Sith techniques and teachings was matched only by later incarnations of Sidious. Thanks to Banite scaling, Plagueis' knowledge and power in the DS is >>>> Bane's, who had accessed a bunch of holocrons of ancient Sith, and that of Revan himself, which contained a plethora of ancient Sith rituals and techniques from Malachor, Korriban and other such planets.
Regardless, Plagueis doesn't need such reasoning. His Force feats and capabilities appear to dwarf that of the entire team combined. Maul and Savage are neglible in terms of threats in a Force attack, and I've yet to see any reason from you why they would be. Maul was not a Banite Sith, he was trained as an assassin. Savage is literally a non-factor, and Plagueis would just one-shot him. Again, you've provided absolutely no proof that Savage would not get completely decimated by Plagueis by the Force before any sort of lightsaber duel would commence. What accolades and feats does he have? The only important one is temporarily ragdolling Dooku and Ventress, but that was under specific circumstances, and can't be brought up here. The same goes for Maul to be honest.
As for Dooku, he doesn't tip the scale. Bane's TK and other Force related feats are arguably > Dooku's tbh, the latter has very little in terms of actual impressive Force feats. Where Plagueis gets a thousand years of Banite scaling and the power to inadvertently change the entire climate of a planet and increase his own midichlorian count; Dooku has nothing even close to matching that. Provide me with feats that Dooku has that come even close to matching Plagueis' power in the Dark Side.
Honestly, it wouldn't even get to lightsaber fighting. Plagueis would rather not have to exert himself, and he is known to be capable of actually sensing the midichlorian count of those around him (from the novel). If all three opponents charged, Plagueis would let out a burst of lightning on all three. Dooku may be able to withstand it temporarily, but Savage gets hit instantly, and Maul is overwhelmed seconds after. Even if I were generous, and only Savage got killed before they reached within lightsaber range, Plagueis' force augmentation would be more than enough to contend with Dooku and Maul simultaneously. A massively pre-prime Plagueis contended and beat Darth Venamis, who:
(1) Was powerful enough that when Plagueis killed Tenebrous, he still felt that the Dark Side was not fully allegianced to him. This was Venamis;
(2) Was a dueling enthusiast, and therefore probably a lot more practised in martial skill than Plagueis, the latter of whom regales to Venamis after their duel that deception over martial abilities was the new way of the Sith;
(3) Was trained in Plagueis' own style;
(4) Was ambidextrous and could switch between forms effortlessly.
Skill isn't everything, especially when you're that much stronger in the Force.
The Banite Sith had an emphasis on lightsaber combat. That Plagueis didn't like it doesn't mean anything. Yoda was known to have rarely, if ever, displayed his lightsaber skills; rare enough that many Jedi actually considered Windu to be the best duelist in the Order. Yet, Plagueis was capable of beating someone who was trained specifically to counter his style. Plagueis fought one serious duel in his entire life, and yet is > Dooku and Windu, two swordmasters who were basically lightsaber autists. Plagueis is just too powerful in the Force and too well trained (in his earlier years under Tenebrous, as per the Banite tradition) to not be a tier 9 duelist. Similarly, Sidious only mastered lightsaber dueling to mock the Jedi. He didn't have a serious duel for decades and is confirmed as tier 9. Plagueis was also regarded as a master duelist by Tenebrous. Plagueis simply must be a tier 9 duelist, unless you can successfully persuade me that Dooku or Windu, two high 8's, were superior. And, as we know from a variety of examples, a duelist should be capable of contending with two duelists of a tier below them, and beating them.
If you disagree with me on these points, you'll have to explain how:
(1) Savage would even be able to reach Plagueis before getting killed;
(2) Plagueis isn't a tier 9 duelist, or rather how Dooku would be challenge for him (implying that Plagueis is only tier 8);
(3) That Maul adds any significant Force related feats to the team.
So what if Dooku survived with Yoda for like, a minute? Not factoring in that the two would be intimate with each other's techniques, giving Dooku more time to survive. Even Vjun-amped Dooku was not capable of beating Yoda.
You're arguing as if Savage's capabilities matter against a combatant like Plagueis.
Last edited by Meatpants on Dec 28th, 2018 at 10:07 AM
This is a postscript for my last response that will serve as my final conclusions on this debate, and I'll allow you to, in turn, finalise it. Since this argument has basically run its course, I will conclude my points and add a few more to both further bolster my overall position and reinforce my already existing points.
Plagueis is roughly equal as a Force user and lightsaber duelist to TPM Sidious. It would be marathon to go into listing all the evidence for this, but this debate provided by JKBart is more than sufficient for your perusal should you wish too (note that JKBart won overwhelmingly here):
If either of them had an edge in an all-out fight, it would be marginal to moderate at the very best. Note that Sidious attacked Plagueis when the Muun was extremely drunk and sleeping; in fact Plagueis didn't even go "all-out", in that he was perfectly capable of erecting a barrier against Sidious' lightning, but instead chose to play with death, and regenerated his body's midi-chlorians faster than Sidious could kill them. This is despite Sidious drawing into the Force more than he ever had in his life. This is significant because:
(1) Sidious had participated in deep meditation with Plagueis in order to shift the net alignment of the Force in the galaxy to the Dark Side, and Sidious is confirmed as drawing deeper than he ever had for his lightning, which is > the power he drew on in his meditation to shift the balance of the Force in the galaxy;
(2) Sidious has greater Force potential than Plagueis;
(3) Plagueis is heavily intoxicated while this is occurring.
In the unlikely event that Dooku was able to attack Plagueis with lightning whilst the Muun was distracted, Plagueis would be more than capable of erecting a barrier or regenerating his midi-chlorians. There's no reason to believe that any of Dooku's lightning feats are > TPM Sidious drawing further into the Dark Side and his own potential than ever before, including shifting the Force in meditation with Plagueis. If Plagueis was highly intoxicated able to match this feat from TPM Sidious, I see no reason to believe that a Plagueis who is going all-out would not be able to throw up a barrier or regenerate his midi-chlorians against the combined attacks of Dooku, Maul and Savage, should they prove capable of penetrating his guard completely, though this is all-together unlikely in the first place.
Considering that Plagueis was able to match this feat by TPM Sidious whilst taken by surprise while intoxicated, the question arises as to whether there are any other combative applications to Plagueis' esoteric mastery of midi-chlorian manipulation. The answer is yes.
Plagueis was capable of killing Venamis completely, then bringing him back to life over and over again until Venamis' organs literally gave out. Inducing the midi-chlorians to create life, or to bring life back to a corpse, is far more difficult than severing them from someone, i.e. cutting someone off from the Force. Plagueis says specifically that "It is far easier to achieve." Note that Plagueis was reanimating Venamis in his lab, which Sidious noted was a powerful Dark Side nexus that could be expected from planets like Korriban; though it's difficult to determine whether Plagueis would be boosted by his own nexus, and furthermore Plagueis would not be talking about severing someone's connection to the force in a lab setting powered by a nexus, but rather if the situation arose, as he mentions the possibility of doing it to a Jedi. It took Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar together in the Kotor 2 video game to sever a Jedi's connection to the Force without prep, and Plagueis was >>> these three Jedi combined, so much so that any nexus benefit those Jedi had from being on Dantooine would not factor into the scaling. So it's perfectly plausible that Plagueis could sever someone' connection to the Force if he wished, and without prep.
Other Force feats include:
-Could casually/with relative ease create a Force storm that could cover an entire landscape in bolts of lightning:
-As mentioned in my previous post, a massively pre-prime Plagueis was capable of completely altering a planet's geological processes inadvertently and without much effort.
In light of all this analysis, Plagueis should be capable of gaining a marked advantage before any lightsaber contest can begin. He'd first be able to identify the strength of his opponents by examining their midi-chlorian count through the Force. He would then attempt to eliminate them all at once, and create a Force storm with both hands that would cover the entire battlefield in lightning that is =/= TPM Sidious' own lightning in potency. Savage would be taken out of the game within moments, probably charred into a husk or pushed over the pad and into Kamino's sea. Maul would also arguably be killed after some time, his force barrier would simply be penetrated. Plagueis =/= TPM Sidious >> TPM Maul. Only Dooku could be argued to be left standing. Plagueis then calls his lightsaber to his left hand, ignites it, and the duel begins.
Even if we examine lightsaber dueling, we can't escape the irrevocable fact that Plagueis =/= Sidious in lightsabers, who is >> TPM Maul. Not only that, but Maul is literally trained in whatever Sidious was taught (with the possible exception of teras kasi), and in turn, Sidious was taught everything he knew of the art of the lightsaber by Plagueis himself. Maul is heavily disadvantaged here. He's a lite-Sidious, and Plagueis would be fully capable of exploiting that with his superior Force augmentation, speed, and superior tactical flexibility and adaptability. Savage is one tier again below Maul, and if he somehow survived the Force attack, Plagueis' speed would just completely overwhelm him within seconds. Only Dooku stands a chance against Plagueis with the lightsaber. But then Plagueis has other assets. In his duel with Venamis, he is shown to be capable of integrating Force moves in his lightsaber duels, and seeing that he is > Dooku in the Force, this may be problematic. Not only that, but Plagueis proved in his duel with Venamis to be extremely adaptable: despite going up against a prepped physical equal (trained in the same arts as Tenebrous trained him in), trained in his own strengths and weaknesses, Plagueis adapted and won, an extremely incredible feat. Plagueis has other options, like severing his opponent's connections to the Force. We have been shown that, when desperate or severely injured to the point where conjuring lightning almost made him unconscious, he was capable of incredible augmented feats against Maladian assassins whilst simultaneously micromanaging healing his body and controlling his three hearts, blood flow etc. None of them could even get past his Force barrier, and Plagueis literally atomised their bodies with TK. This is, again I must emphasise, while having extreme life-threatening injuries, with two of this three hearts failing. He could also, if his barrier was penetrated, regenerate his midi-chlorians to prevent death, with only someone noticeably stronger than TPM Sidious drawing on his potential would be able to stop that. Combine this with Plagueis' amazing tactical adaptability, he simply can't lose against this team. It has the capability of being a good fight, but Plagueis comes out on top.
I'm gonna be practically away working for the next 6 or so hours, so if Jack wants to, after posting, proceed to organising judging if people actually want to judge this, then go right ahead.
Dec 22nd, 2018 05:20 PM
