What Lucas said is different from what Star Wars dot com said. Lucas said "we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy." That quote itself has nothing to do with power. Starwars.com goes on to interpret it like Dan Brown goes on to interpret DaVinci's paintings, but he could have just said that to make up for the bad special effects in the OT.
No. They went so far as to elaborate on what exactly he meant by his words, so obviously you are the only one who doesn't have a clue. Unless your unsupported opinion > Lucasfilms. Ha.
Actually, it does. By "true Jedi", you can interpret that he means ones that don't have some kind of detriment or lack of certain qualities.
Vader is a cyborg, who is horribly slow and because of such has had his dueling skill deteriorate. Luke is a neophyte farmboy with little to no real training. He makes that clear in a segment entitled "Prime of the Jedi" that they really aren't spectacular whatsoever in comparison to those we see in the Prequel Trilogy.
Nice try, Godzilla. Unfortunately for you, the comparison doesn't work.
Dan Brown doesn't actually have the authority to give a conclusive answer on Leo's artwork, seeing as DaVinci is dead. And how it's merely speculation, whether supported or not.
That differs from sw.com giving an elaboration insomuch as everything that is said on record must be approved by one or more forms of authority. Now, the claim on what Lucas meant is published for all the world to see, and it's a very substantial claim to make (as in, "that claim can sway views!").
If what they said was wrong, it would be removed. I highly doubt George Lucas would want false words coming out of his mouth, and seeing as Lucasfilms must review these things, I'd say you have no clue what you're talking about (as displayed by your asinine analogy).
They are the official site that represent Star Wars. So, do tell, are they wrong? And you, who isn't employed by anything related to George Lucas, are right?
Wait, don't answer, I'll do it for you: You'sa wrong. My point still stands.
What you fail to realize is that whether or not it was because of the technology (or lack thereof), the fact that it was said means it stands. You can't justify your claims or attempt to refute an authoritative quote by saying "LOL IT WAS TEH 70S ADVENT!" because that means precisely dick.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Dec 10th, 2006 at 09:00 PM
My apologies- you're right about the quote. I was just suggesting what it could have been. Don't get so defensive!
Anyway, not that I mean to refute what you're saying, but saying that Vader is not a true Jedi (in power) is preposterous. As Darth Vader (in suit) he preformed feats that I doubt (he has shown nothing on this level thus far) Anakin could have (ex. Force Crushing a tank, throwing his lightsaber long distances, fighting two Masters and two knights (I think that was it) in RoDV, choking an officer from a totally different ship in ESB, bringing a tree down on the Dark Woman, etc.). In any event, this isn't Anakin vs. Vader. This is Vader vs. Dooku. Anakin beat Dooku by a substantial margin; in the ROTS novelization, Dooku can't do anything to stop him. Even if Vader is weaker than Anakin, he still might be able to beat Dooku.
I'm not good with quotes. I'd better stick with the battle aspect.
Dooku wins. Watch ESB. Watch AoTC. (Just end, the rest is shit). Vader can't stand a chance against precise strikes since his style employs long, winding swings that'll leave him open.
Vader is also stronger, and has armor. Vader can afford to be hit a couple of times. Unlike Anakin. Or Dooku. Vader's strength is enough to pummel the Count to the floor.
Dooku's speed is enough to overwhelm and confuse Vader - who in comaprison is pathetically slow. He couldnt overpower, and eventually got overwhelmed, by a farmboy with minimal training. You could have all the strength in the world - but you cant hit what you cant catch.
That "farmboy with minimal training" also had, save Anakin himself, the highest potential in the Star Wars galaxy. He also dipped into the dark side, using his anger as a weapon.
Just like Anakin did with Dooku.
Besides, Vader wasn't trying to kill him, merely disarm him.
Once again, if you compare the movies, Vader, when fighting Luke, moves just as quickly as Anakin does in RotS. He'd be able to hit Dooku.
He can have as much potential as he damn well wants, potential doesnt equate to power. You have to fullfill your potential to become powerful - and by ESB or even ROTJ, Luke wsnt even close to reaching his potential.
Whoopdi f*ckin doo. Vader was completely emerged in the dark side during that battle but still got his arm hacked off by an untrained farm boy. If Vader was to fight Dooku, Dooku would also have 'dipped into the dark side', due to the fact he is a fully trained sith lord. I dont see what point you were trying to make.
In ESB or ROTJ? In ROTJ it is true, Vader didnt want to kill Luke. But this doesnt equate to letting Luke completely pwn him and getting his arm hacked off. Luke outduelled him fair and square. Now Dooku is leagues above Luke. You do the maths.
Are you kidding? We were obviously watching different movies then. All the PT battles are leagues faster than the OT ones. Dont deny y or make up excuses, it is the simple truth.
Your point? So what if he is a cyborg, look at Grievous. So what if he considered slow by Jedi standards, he was able to take on 8 Jedi even though he just got into a heavy black suit.
You are wrong. I guess by your logic, Qui-Gon Jinn > Darth Vader. Smart!
Let me tell you something Dooku fanboys. George Lucas himself said Vader is 80% of Sidious. If we are going to take Vader by the technicalities of Empire Strikes Back, then I guess Dooku >> Sidious seeing how slow Vader was in TESB due to choreography. If that was 80% of Sidious, then I guess Maul = Sidious by that logic. No, it’s stupid and incorrect. We have to take the fact that the movie was made in the 70s and the EU into consideration. It’s ridiculous to say Tyrannus would pwn a powerful Dark Lord like Vader. Fvcking Fanboyism.
Ergo, Dooku fanboys: please shut the hell up. As for the rest of you, get the fvck out of this thread becuz this debate is never going to end. Thank you very much! General Kenobi out…
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FOR GENERAL KENOBI
(even though it's much easier to use the quote feature)
What do you mean "your point", you dolt? If you'd have taken the time to read through my post, maybe you would know what the point was. But, instead you chose the route of having your head stuck up your ass.
Nice. I expect a retort to go something like "z0mg i r teh pseudo-1ntellect, ad h0minem!!!//ONEELEVEN!!". The point, anyways, as I will explain to you has two parts to it:
1. That his dueling skill isn't on par with Anakin's, which was the opposite of what Kadesh asserted. By his implications in his post and former posts in other threads, Vader is greater than Anakin in dueling skill. That was what I was originally appealing to.
Which leads into...
2. Then I said that in regards to a way to interpret what Lucas said about "true Jedi fighting" in the Original Trilogy, and how it (the answer) would still be correct.
Essentially, the point for simpletons was: it's reason to suspect his skills went down, and that further propels the reason for the answer provided by starwars.com still holding its value.
"Look at Grievous", your point? Oh? None? When I stated Vader was a cyborg, I later elaborated on what handicaps that gives him. Thanks for [not] reading, though.
In addition to that, I was roughly mirroring George Lucas' words by titling him as such, which is quite a step up from how he actually phrases it: "a crippled half droid, half man".
You should also note that he only eliminates four by himself, and they don't all attack him in conjuncture. He also got: his arm lopped off, half of his mask shredded, pummeled with scraps, nearly beaten to death. Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill (save for Tsui Choi, who only attacked with a blade once, IIRC)?
Wait. Don't answer, seeing as you'd be wasting more of my time since all of that is irrelevant to what my original point was.
It's not "by my logic", because your asinine statement has nothing to do with what I said. I never implied that anyone who is seemingly faster than Vader will beat him, as you seem to suggest.
Do tell, what does Qui-Gon have to do with the fact that Anakin's dueling skills in the PT were greater than in the OT (and that it's irrelevant whether it's due to lack of technology or not)? Oops, look like someone (you) made an ass out of themselves!
Not so smart. Furthermore, I'll note that just because someone is slow, it doesn't necessarily mean said someone is incapable of contending with faster opponents. For what you said to be correct, I would have to agree to the opposite. So unlucky.
I should make note that I never stated, or said anything vaguely indicating Tyranus will win; I merely pointed out the flaws in Kadesh's post, and later Godzilla's. That's just for future reference, not directed towards you or any more feeble minded posts you may or may not make, just a general statement.
I really hope you're not calling me a "Dooku fanboy", because that would be incorrect on two separate levels. Three, actually, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're not including me (even though you gave no fancy title to "Dooku fanboys").
In any case, calling someone a "fanboy" doesn't help your arguments whatsoever. In these cases, it only makes you look like an idiot given that the opposition would be quite justified in labelling you a fanboy.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Dec 11th, 2006 at 03:46 AM
Wait a sec... Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious? D@mn, he's even more powerful than I was saying. ROTJ Sidious is like 10% or 20% better than his ROTS self. That makes Vader... Let's see...
We'll go with RotS Sids being 15% weaker than RotJ.
I did the math, and Vader, by ROTJ, is 94% of ROTS Sidious.
That's pretty d@mn strong.
Probably strong enough to beat the Count... I'd give him 85% of RotS Sids. AT MOST.
Last edited by Darth Godzilla on Dec 11th, 2006 at 03:48 AM
Dec 10th, 2006 08:11 PM
