Setting: Mustafar
All the terrain that was destroyed in their first fight has been rebuilt since. There are no conditions; both opponents may use whatever they have at their disposal, short of extra help, to finish it. Only one can survive.
***
I would bet on Obi-Wan, here -- he did it the first time, and he can do it again. Vader was unable to penetrate his defense on the Death Star, and with the terrain to move through, Obi-Wan's defensive abilities will become greater.
Saying that there's 'no way' that Vader could defeat Dooku if Obi-Wan could defeat Vader is puzzling. Each of the combatants have their own fighting styles, and their own abilities. Claiming that is akin to claiming that since paper loses to scissors, there's no way it could beat rock -- it doesn't fit logically at all. Obi-Wan being able to defeat Vader has nothing to do with Vader being able to defeat Dooku.
NJO Luke mega pwn Ben & does that mean Luke can't pwn Vader? A>B>C is only not suitable when A, B, & C are close.
Also, Ben>Vader is actually not true. So it is useless to debate Dooku>Ben>Vader.
"NJO Luke mega pwn Ben & does that mean Luke can't pwn Vader?"
No, it simply means that you can't tell the obvious flaws in relying on ABC logic. Each opponent is better than another for individual reasons, not because you think they can take a guy who took a guy who took another guy who could probably take that guy. Mace Windu beat Sidious, but Yoda, who is undeniably more "powerful" than Mace, only managed to stalemate Sidious.
Though I could be operating under flawed assumptions, I don't see why "Ben > Vader" would not be true.
Fact: Obi-Wan could and did hold off Vader's attacks in ANH.
Fact: Obi-Wan could and did competently take the offensive against Vader in ANH.
Fact: Obi-Wan, as of ROTS, was able to overcome Vader, on the same place where they're fighting in this match.
Obi-Wan was killed when and only when he allowed Vader to strike him down. Regardless of how other people might compare to Obi-Wan, he is capable of defeating Vader.
You think Vader is "full out" against Ben in ANH? You must be kidding me.
If Ben continued to fight Vader, I can see he is losing. Vader's force power would also be greater than that of Ben.
Did I say that Vader was "full-out" against Obi-Wan?
I did not. I said that Obi-Wan matched Vader, and that he was only killed when he allowed Vader to defeat him. Regardless of the intensity of the fight, the facts remain that Vader did not penetrate Obi-Wan's defense up until the moment that Obi-Wan ceased to do anything at all. Where you get your idea that Obi-Wan was losing as the fight continued, I'm not particularly sure.
In any event, Anakin's force power potential was greater than Obi-Wan's in their first battle, and in the long run, it didn't seem to do him much good at all. Obi-Wan's done little else but improve in Force power since he emerged from Mustafar that day; Vader has, in fact, been vastly degraded in the available power he can throw. Additionally, he is operating under the additional hindrances his suit will provide, in Mustafar's environment conditions.
If Ben didn't allow Vader to defeat him, he still loses at the end. Vader has more fighting experience too. He also has more experenice fighting in Volcano Planet.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
No. There was no reason for OB1 to sacrifice himself if he could have won. Vader was stronger than OB1 at that time, had grown far more patient, and grown immensely in the force. The ONLY reason he won in ROTS was because Anakin was blinded by rage and made a bad choice. Had the fight continued, Anakin would have slaughtered OB1. It was no different on the Death Star, and would be no different here.
Vader has matured, grown, and learned from his mistakes. Surely someone of his caliber would not do the same thing he did the first time, as also, he wouldn't be in a fit of rage.
Vader takes this.
Also, the same is true form OB1. You said he took the complete offesnsive. And he could not penetrate Vader's defenses. Everything you're saying Vader failed, Ben did too.
Such a compelling argument, Robert. Now, here were two (of three, which the third doesn't apply) of the main supporting reasons as to why Obi-Wan was even able to overwhelm Darth Vader in RotS:
1. He doesn't have this advantage anymore, or at the least, he wouldn't know Vader's technique anywhere remotely close to as well as he did before, given Vader's implemented elements from several different forms into his form.
The reverse, however, could be true, considering Obi-Wan still uses Soresu. Now, that doesn't account for much as we saw in ANH (although, the duel itself went 'unfinished'), but it detracts from your point that 'Obi-Wan did it once, he can do it again', as it was partly the reason he even contended as well as he did.
2. Ben Kenobi is slow, and unagile compared to his former self (likewise with Vader), and there's no way that he can use as many, if any at all, of the advantages that he had on Mustafar again. He needed to give ground to withstand Anakin, and resorting to all sorts of tactics. I'd love to see old Ben try lava skating for a second time. It's likely that they wouldn't go very far from the open spaces, seeing as they are both too hindered (in age, and physical limitations respectively) to move around like they did in RotS.
Now,
3. Darth Vader's force abilities have grown far too great for Kenobi to handle, as much is obvious through his masterful displays:
The first scan simply shows that even Boba Fett hadn't felt power like that before (albeit, he's a non-Force sensitive), and his grip was described as "strong as steel". The second Vader bringing down trees with a clench of the fist (the humongous tree was already cut, however, the tree in the background was not). The third and fourth scan simply shows Vader's vast telekinetic abilities.
More or less to show Vader's prowess, and how much he's grown in the days since the incident on Mustafar, and how old Ben just doesn't compare in the least bit.
Of course, there's more, but there's a snowballs chance in hell that Obi-Wan could overwhelm Vader in this respect. So, even if Vader is lacking the necessary ability to take down Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat, he can triumph through usage of the force. Not only that, but throwing debris and shrapnel around is one of Vader's specialities to overwhelm an opponent, as he's done on several occasions (notably in ESB, and against Dark Woman - among others), and there's an abudance of that on Mustafar, IIRC.
Really, that's the factor that changes the entire fight.
Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 says the following about the duel:
"Classically, Form III allows Kenobi to hold off the Dark Lord but cannot bring him victory against the more powerful Form V". (Star Wars Insider, Issue 62, p. 35).
It seems the case that the duel was a stalemate for the time being, so it's not as if Obi-Wan was going to defeat Darth Vader, or had the upper hand in the duel. And seriously, the battle lasted all of a minute and twenty seconds, I'd go as far as to claim that Vader would've won had the duel went uninterrupted.
What? The most he could do is retreat into main control center, there's no way he could do as he'd done in RotS without putting himself at a great risk - greater than whatever advantage he might have gained.
Anyways, Vader takes this.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Apr 7th, 2007 at 01:19 AM
Hmm, well I'd put Vader slightly above Ben overall, Ben could maybe do it on Mustafar - he'd be betetr at avoiding falling rocks and lava that tries to fall on him and such, as Vader can't do acrobatics and is slower in his suit. If Ben jumps onto an object floating in the river, and Vader tries to follow him, he *might* not make it. Definitely a close match-up, though.
Apr 6th, 2007 11:46 PM
