Dawn of Rebellion is the first Era sourcebook from the FFG Star Wars RPG line (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force & Destiny). While much of the content in this RPG line is considered Legends (as the RPG line was started before the Disney purchase), Dawn of Rebellion is an entirely canon sourcebook, with interesting tidbits of information from the Rebels and Rogue One periods of time in the canon Star Wars universe.
I'm going to begin with the TL;DR version of what I'm about to say, for those who don't feel like reading a massive block of text, then post the rest down below.
TL;DR
Vader is top dog by a landslide.
Maul and the Grand Inquisitor are surprisingly equal, with Maul being better at saber combat, while the Grand Inquisitor is a superior Force wielder, and infinitely better against ranged opponents.
Ahsoka, the Fifth Brother, and the Seventh Sister are all around the same level, distinctly below the Grand Inquisitor and Maul, but still formidable in their own right. Ahsoka is weaker, stat-wise, than the two Inquisitors, but has a killer ability that makes up for the difference.
Kanan is the most talented (but not strongest) Force user, with the highest number of ranks in the Discipline skill, but is clearly below Ahsoka, the Fifth Brother, and Seventh Sister in lightsaber combat.
Ezra is standard player character-level. Good against Stormtroopers, but not going to be holding his own against actual fully trained Jedi and Sith any time soon.
Now, what's really fascinating about this sourcebook is that it broke a major FFG trend. Up until now, FFG has tried its best to avoid statting out any major Star Wars characters. Lando had stats in one adventure module, but even that was a deliberately down-played Lando whose stats were not meant to encompass everything Lando could do, and only focus on what he would be doing in that module. Dawn of Rebellion, on the other hand, gives us a solid stat-block of several major characters from the pre-ANH time period, including Vader, Maul, the Grand Inquisitor, the Fifth Brother, the Seventh Sister, Ahsoka, Kanan, and Ezra.
Now, before I start rattling off stats, there are two important things to note here. First off, this RPG is very abstract, even compared to other RPGs. Second off, these character stat blocks are not intended to show absolutely every single detail of what each character is capable of (as the amount of bookkeeping required for each of these characters would pretty much necessitate its own sourcebook). Instead, these stat-blocks are supposed to be generalizations, and any GM running these characters is not only suggested, but recommended, to give these characters new abilities depending on the situation.
All that being said, I feel like this sourcebook is the closest we have to being able to compare characters capabilities side-by-side in a vacuum in the new canon.
For those of you who haven't played the FFG Star Wars RPG line, let me explain how the stats and dice work. There are six characteristics that all of your abilities will be based off of. These are Brawn, Agility, Intellect, Cunning, Willpower, and Presence. There's also a separate stat for something called Force Rating. Then you have skills, each based off of your characteristics. The highest stat you can have in a characteristic naturally is a 6, and the highest rank you can have in a skill is a 5. When you go to roll the dice, you take the highest of the two numbers between characteristics and build your dice pool with that number in green dice, then you upgrade the green dice into yellow (going from a d8 to a d12) an equal number of times to the lower number. So, for example, let's say we're doing a Melee check, and you have a 4 in Brawn and 2 in Melee. You'd grab 4 green dice (equal to your Brawn), then upgrade 2 of those green dice into yellow dice (equal to your Melee ranks). Then the GM sets the difficulty for the roll, based on the range of the attack and defensive bonuses the enemy has.
Speaking of those defenses, there are four important stats for a character's survivability. A character's Soak value determines how much damage they ignore from an incoming attack. For example, if an enemy were to fire a blaster and deal 9 damage to a character with Soak 6, that 9 would be reduced to 3 damage. Next is a character's Wound threshold. This is how much damage a character can take before they drop unconscious (and suffer a critical injury in the process) from physical damage. Then there's something called the Strain threshold. Think of this as more of a mental Hit Points system. Physical exhaustion, mental stress, and various talents and abilities can cause a player to suffer strain. Once they go over their Strain threshold, they drop unconscious, but don't suffer a critical injury like they do when going over their Wound threshold. Next, there's Defense, which adds Setback dice (a d6) to the difficulty of incoming attacks. This can make it harder for enemies to actually land attacks on the character. Finally, there are various abilities that upgrade the difficulty of incoming attacks (turning purple d8s into red d12s, or if all of the difficulty dice are already d12s, adding additional d8s). The only relevant ability that does this in the following stat blocks is the Adversary talent, which upgrades attack difficulty by a number equal to the Adversary ranks. Basically, the higher your ranks in Adversary, the more difficult you are to hit.
Lastly, there's the Force. The Force can basically be broken down into three categories: Force rating, Discipline (a skill based off of your Willpower characteristic), and Force powers. A character's Force rating expresses that character's raw power in the Force. This determines how many Force dice a character will roll when making a Force power check, with each dice providing additional Force points that can be spent in different ways. A character's Discipline determines how well the character can handle the raw power of their Force rating. Many Force powers require rolling a Discipline check as part of the Force power check, to determine whether or not the Force power succeeds. Finally, Force powers themselves express the abilities the character is capable of channeling their power into. For example, Move is Telekinesis, Unleash is Force Lightning, Enhance is Force-based augmentation, ect. In order to be a capable Force wielder, characters will have to dump a great deal of XP into a wide variety of Force powers, on top of purchasing ranks in Discipline, and buying talents in talent trees to raise one's Force rating. A Force rating of 2-3, a Willpower of 3-4, a Discipline of 2-3, and three or four Force powers is typically what constitutes a Jedi player character.
With all of that out of the way, let's look at these characters (in the order they show up in the book)! Now, I won't write out every single skill and talent each character has (as that'd take forever), and will instead focus on the abilities relevant for this forum. (For example, I'll be leaving off things like Knowledge (Lore), as that isn't going to be coming up in a versus match. But I will be including things like the character's Lightsaber skill ranks, and base attributes)
Maul: Brawn 4, Agility 5, Intellect 3, Cunning 4, Willpower 4, Presence 3
Soak 5, Wound 18, Strain 21, Defense 0
Skills: Brawl 4, Lightsaber 5
Talents: Force Rating 4, Adversary 3, Parry 4, Ataru Technique (gets to use Agility instead of Brawn when performing lightsaber checks), Hawkbat Swoop (can basically jump to engage and attack nearby enemies, much like the Force Jump ability in Knights of the Old Republic)
Interesting things to note here: Maul has a maxed out Lightsaber skill stat, going off of a very high Agility stat. He'd be rolling 5 yellow dice in combat, which is absurdly good in this game. He also has a Force Rating 4, and Adversary 3, both among the highest of any NPC in any of the books from this RPG line so far. To my knowledge, there has only been one NPC outside of this sourcebook with a Force Rating 4, the Jedi Temple Guard. Adversary 3 is typically reserved for the Big Bad of an entire campaign. He has 4 ranks in Parry, which can be used to reduce incoming damage from Brawl, Melee, and Lightsaber attacks by 6 damage (2+ranks), making him far more survivable than a typical character. He's also conspicuously lacking any ranks in Discipline, though he does have a high Willpower. This means when rolling a lot of Force power checks, he'd be rolling 4 green dice. Still a good roll, but it'd be considerably better with a couple of those green dice upgraded to yellows. This makes sense, given what we know about Maul, though. He's got a lot of raw power, but doesn't put nearly as much time and effort into development of his Force powers as he does his lightsaber skill.
Darth Vader: Brawn 5, Agility 3, Intellect 3, Cunning 4, Willpower 5, Presence 4
Soak 7, Wound 24, Strain 19, Defense 1
Skills: Discipline 3, Lightsaber 5
Talents: Force Rating 6, Adversary 4, Improved Parry 5, Improved Reflect 5, Durable 3 (reduces critical hits by 30 [crits go by a percentile dice roll, the higher the result, the more severe the crit]), Saber Throw, I Have You Now
Interesting things to note with Vader: He has a considerably higher Force rating than any NPC in any sourcebook so far. Force rating 6 is just mind-bogglingly powerful in this game. On top of that, he has a Willpower 5 with Discipline 3, making his control over the Force also ridiculously powerful. He's also got Adversary 4, the highest Adversary rating of any NPC we've ever seen. On top of all of that, he has both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect (meaning he can turn your attacks back against you if you roll poorly enough while attacking him), and they're both at 5, meaning he can reduce incoming damage from Melee, Brawl, Lightsaber, Ranged Light, and Ranged Heavy attacks by 7. Coupled with his ridiculously high Soak of 7, and his Durable 3 talent, and Vader is virtually unkillable. He's also got a maxed out Lightsaber skill, so like Maul, he'll be rolling 5 yellows when he attacks. And finally, he has a unique talent named "I Have You Now" which lets him massively increase the percentile roll when he triggers critical hits, which he does with virtually every swing. I've seen this Vader build adding +80 and +100 to his critical hit rolls, which typically means immediate death.
Interesting things to note with the Grand Inquisitor: He actually has the same Force Rating and Adversary ranks as Maul. On top of that, he's got Discipline 3, while Maul has no ranks in Discipline, telling us he's much more capable with the Force. However, the Grand Inquisitor's lightsaber checks aren't as good as Maul's, as the Grand Inquisitor only rolls 4 yellows, not 5. Like Maul, he also has Parry 4, but on top of that, he has Improved Reflect 4, letting him reduce incoming ranged attack damage by 6, and potentially turn the shots back at the attacker, much like Vader. Judging by this stat-block, the Grand Inquisitor is somewhat like a lighter mix of Vader and Maul, not quite as good as Maul with Saber skills, and not quite as good as Vader at using the Force, but exceptionally good in both areas.
Things to note: The Fifth Brother has Force Rating 3, and Adversary 2. No big surprise here, he's inferior to Maul, the Grand Inquisitor, and Vader in these regards. Shockingly, however, he has Brawl 4. When coupled with his Brawn of 5, this actually means he's better at pure hand-to-hand than Maul. This can be chalked up to his Jedi training in addition to his species' physicality. Interestingly, he has no ranks in Parry, only Reflect. While this doesn't mean the character is totally incapable of parrying, it does mean that he doesn't have access to the defensive game mechanic. This detail is likely included due to the Fifth Brother getting completely jobbed in lightsaber combat against Ahsoka. The Seventh Sister has Force Rating 3 and Adversary 2, much like the Fifth Brother. However, she's got one more rank in the Lightsaber skill, the Parry skill instead of the Reflect skill, and Ataru Technique, letting her use Agility instead of Brawn for lightsaber combat. She's also got considerably lower Discipline than the Fifth Brother. This makes sense, as the Fifth Brother seemed to be the more capable Force wielder of the two, while the Seventh Sister was a more able lightsaber duelist from what we saw.
Things to note about Ahsoka: I was honestly shocked at how weak they made Ahsoka. I figured she'd be statted out at least equal to an Inquisitor, if not better. However, what they went for does work. With Ataru Technique and 4 ranks in Lightsaber, she's still more skilled at lightsaber combat than the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister, and is an equal to the Grand Inquisitor. However, with only Adversary 1, she's distinctly below the Grand Inquisitor, and even the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister. For Force Rating and Discipline, she's actually even with the Fifth Brother, and thus slightly above the Seventh Sister. The real kicker with Ahsoka, however, is Saber Swarm. This is where she goes from being below the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister to vastly outmatching them. You see, with the paired lightsabers, Ahsoka is already potentially able to land two hits per attack. However, this is also true for any of the characters wielding double-bladed lightsabers, like the Inquisitors and Maul. What really sets Ahsoka apart, however, is that Saber Swarm gives her the potential to land upward of four strikes in one attack. So while she might be somewhat below the Inquisitors defensively, due to a lower Adversary rank, she has the potential to totally destroy them (especially the Fifth Brother, who doesn't have the Parry talent) with an overwhelmingly powerful offense.
Things to note about Kanan: First off, it's important to mention that this is blinded Kanan. He has a unique ability called Kanan's Farsight, that lets him behave as if he had sight. As for how he stacks up to everyone else, his Force rating and Adversary ranks are identical to Ahsoka, and he actually has a higher Discipline than her. He has the highest Discipline of all the Force users in this book, shockingly enough. This can likely be chalked up to his reliance on the Force for absolutely everything after he was blinded. That said, while he might be among the most capable Force users of all these characters, aside from Vader, he's definitely coming up short in lightsaber skill. He has more ranks in the lightsaber skill than the Fifth Brother, but his Brawn is fairly low in comparison, which off-sets that advantage. He does have access to both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, much like Vader, but he'll only be stopping 5 damage with them, not 7. Outside of the Fifth Brother, pretty much every other character I've gone over so far outclasses Kanan in lightsaber combat. That said, Kanan is still quite capable, especially compared to most player characters.
Things to note about Ezra: And finally, here's a good depiction of what a standard player character Jedi might look like. If you picture your average Jedi padawan, this is pretty much it. He does have a neat unique ability from the Animal Empathy, but beyond that, he's pretty pathetic compared to the rest of the characters listed so far. Force Rating 2, Discipline 1, no ranks of Adversary, Lightsaber 2 based off of a Brawn of 2. He's definitely going to do some work when fighting minion-level opponents like Stormtroopers, especially thanks to his Improved Reflect 2, but the moment it comes to actual combat against another Force user, he's out of his depth.
This entire sourcebook is brimming with interesting lore and worldbuilding based around the worlds, creatures, vehicles, and weapons introduced in Rebels and Rogue One. Just because you don't like how they stack certain characters up to one another doesn't mean the Storygroup does nothing. They're doing their job, crafting an interweaving story. Not catering to people on versus forums who want to fanwank certain characters.
Last edited by Underachiever59 on Apr 20th, 2018 at 07:20 PM
Of course Vader > Maul in Willpower. Why wouldn't he be? Willpower is the characteristic that Discipline is based off of. In other words, it determines a character's skill at using the Force. I don't think anyone would argue that Maul > Vader in skill with the Force.
Even if you don't look at game mechanics, Maul got chopped in half and became a raving lunatic incapable of forming a coherent thought beyond "kill Kenoni". Vader got three limbs hacked off, burned alive, and was reconstructed while conscious, and came out of the ordeal as a thinking, rational being. It should be obvious to anyone that Vader has a greater level of sheer will than Maul.
What I find questionable about these stat-blocks is that the Grand Inquisitor actually rivals Maul, and is far better at using the Force.
Last edited by Underachiever59 on Apr 20th, 2018 at 07:22 PM
Force power isn't solely derived from discipline...
Yeah, because he was abandoned on a literal junk planet with no company other than some talking snake and the raw vermin he lived off of, for twelves years straight.
It wasn't the injuries in of themselves that drove Maul to insanity, it was the aftermath caused by them; abandonment, despair, hopelessness. In contrast, Vader was taken under Sidious' wing immediately, rebuilt and put to task as his apprentice. He had a sense of purpose and wasn't left to literally rot.
Maul, too, was reconstructed while conscious when Talzin melded extremely hot alchemical legs directly to his torso, and was perfectly rational afterwards. So your post is pretty much 1/10, and that's being generous.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
1. I already addressdd that Force power isn't solely based on Discipline. In this game, it's based on three things. Force rating, a character's raw power. Discipline, a character's control over that power, and Force powers, the different ways a character can channel that power. Vader is above Maul in all three.
2. It's true that Maul went into exile on a junk planet after being sliced in half, but for all we know, that was his choice. Point is, we've seen Maul be utterly mentally broken, to the point of being willing ti commit cannibalism on his own brother. We've never seen anything break Vader nearly as severely.
And Maul's reconstruction from Talzin cannot be eqated to Vader's reconstruction, as the ritual to restore Maul was specifically meant to repair his mind as well as his body. Therefore, it is not a valud showing of Maul's willpower.
Besides which, Vader has countless other impressive willpower showings that Maul just doesn't measure up to. I've never seen Vader whimpering and begging for mercy, no matter how badly we've seen him get beaten in Legends or Canon. We've seen that from Maul the moment he ran into a character who trashed him.
First off, the story group has gone on record expressing that their job is not to just police continuity. They decide which stories get told, when certain story details get dropped, when to throw in easter eggs, and much, much more. Maintaining continuity is the secondary aspect of their job, not primary.
As for 'sending some RPG writer information on AT-STs', this is just as much a part of story telling as giving information to novel authors and comic book writers. The fluff in Dawn of Rebellion is every bit as valid as the fluff in any visual dictionary, or the stories told in the comics and novels, because this is all one level of canon. Canon no longer has tiers like it did before.
Also, it's worth pointing out that a great many storygroup employees, including Pablo, got their start with the old WEG Star Wars RPG, and they hold tabletop games near and dear to their hearts. They're probably more personally invested in FFG's RPG than they are something like Battlefront II.
I agree. I'm glad Maul is at least statted out as a much better duelist. I never would have pictured the Inquisitor being better than Maul as a Force user. But apparently that's how the Storygroup sees him.
It clearly wasn't his choice, which tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Just saying "we've never seen Vader broken" isn't really an argument. He's never been in nearly as dire a situation.
Yes it can, because the criteria you used was "conscious" - Maul was conscious while having super-hot metal welded to him, and didn't go insane from it.
Vader wasn't raised from infancy by Sidious and kept in isolation for 20 years, undergoing the most brutal and traumatic training imaginable. He was also to my knowledge never tortured within an inch of his life. None of your comparisons make any sense.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
First off, Ahsoka didn't stalemate Maul. She retreated after 20 seconds and left a blind man to fight Maul. That isn't stalemating. Stop saying Ahsoka stalemated Maul. It is patently false. You know who Ahsoka did stalemate? The Seventh Sister. Yeah. The Seventh Sister, from what we could see on-screen, was near-equally skilled in lightsaber combat with Ahsoka during their duel, and Ahsoka dispatched her with a Force attack, not through lightsaber skill.
Second, just because Ahsoka is relatively on par with the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister in terms of base stats doesn't mean she can't stomp them in this game the same way she stomped them in the series. Let me break it down for you real quick.
Ahsoka has a talent called Saber Swarm. This lets her hit up to four times with a single attack. The Fifth Brother doesn't have the Parry talent. So mechanically speaking, he can't block those four attacks. Ahsoka can take out the Fifth Brother in a single round of combat if she rolls well enough, just like how she rather easily dispatched the Fifth Brother during their final encounter on Malachor. She's also got a higher Willpower characteristic than the Fifth Brother, making her a more competent Force user in this game than he is. And the stats also show us that the Fifth Brother is better than the Seventh Sister at using the Force, putting Ahsoka well above the Seventh Sister in terms of Force ability.
So, let's set up the encounter. First round, Ahsoka goes first, uses the Move power in this game to throw back the Fifth Brother, just like she did in the show. That just leaves the Seventh Sister to attack her during the first round round, which Ahsoka can parry to avoid taking full damage. Second round, Ahsoka takes the Fifth Brother down with a combat check thanks to her Saber Swarm ability. Then the Seventh Sister attacks again, which Ahsoka can yet again parry. Turn 3, Ahsoka throws back the Seventh Sister with Move, disarming her in the process with a lucky roll. Then the GM flips a destiny point ("deus ex machina" the game mechanic) so a ton of Stormtroopers show up and interrupt the fight before Ahsoka can finish off either opponent. Bam, that simple, we just recreated the encounter between the Inquisitors and Ahsoka from Rebels, no problem.
Just because the game stats tell us that the Inquisitors are close to Ahsoka, that does not mean Ahsoka is incapable of easily dispatching the two of them. It just means Ahsoka dispatching them isn't a sure thing, and the fight was closer than it appeared on-screen. If we dropped Ahsoka into a fight against the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister 100 times, she'd probably only come out on top 50-60% of the time, based on these stats (rough estimate, of course. I'm too lazy to actually run the numbers).
Heck, the Inquisitors rivaling Ahsoka in terms of strength in the Force makes perfect sense to me. What's the biggest thing we've ever seen Ahsoka do with the Force up until that point? Knock over a few droids with a Force wave? 'Cause I'm pretty sure the Inquisitors topped it when we were introduced to them, by stopping a shuttle from flying away and simultaneously closing a hangar bay door with the Force. Granted, that took both Inquisitors working together, but it was still very impressive compared to any of Ahsoka's raw displays of power that I can recall. (I'm not counting the World Between Worlds display against Palpatine, because I'm willing to wager the World Between Worlds is one heck of a Force nexus, right up there with Mortis.)
Just because you don't like that this book puts Ahsoka on the same general level as the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister, that does not mean they aren't on the same level. Think of Ahsoka's fight against the Inquisitors like Maul's fight against Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn. Individually, they were all around the same level of ability, but Maul was the best of the three. It's the same case with Ahsoka, the Fifth Brother, and the Seventh Sister, according to this canon sourcebook. The three of them are all around the same level of ability, but Ahsoka is the best of the three in all the ways that matter, but is distinctly below characters like Maul and the Grand Inquisitor, who likewise are distinctly below Darth Vader.
Also, looking at the stats again, it appears Ahsoka is somewhere more between the Grand Inquisitor and the other two. Her lightsaber skill is equal to the Grand Inquisitor's (with both of them having 4 ranks in the Lightsaber skill, and going off of a characteristic of 4), and her Discipline and Willpower are also equal to the Grand Inquisitor's. The real difference between Ahsoka and the Grand Inquisitor is that he has a higher Force rating (equating to more raw power), and he has Adversary 3, while she has Adversary 1 (making him considerably tougher to hit). With that said, if I were to make tiers for these characters based on the sourcebook, it'd look something like this:
1. Maul spent 12 years on a junk planet, despite being a powerful Sith Lord. Why didn't he steal the ship that brought him there? Or any subsequent ship that arrived? Choice. For all we know, Maul was on that planet by choice, and you have no evidence to the contrary.
1.5 "He's never been in nearly as dire a situation" I'm pretty sure being burned alive after having your limbs cut off by a former best friend, after having strangled your own wife, is a more dire situation than simply being sliced in half.
2. Maul was conscious, yes, but that's not the point. Maul's reconstruction is flat-out not equivalent to Vader's. Maul's reconstruction was specifically meant to restore his mind, Vader's wasn't. Therefore, false equivalency. Stop bringing it up.
3. All of those reasons you point out, Maul being raised from infancy in isolation, and undergoing brutal and traumatic training, are good reasons for why Maul might not have the best Willpower. They're great reasons for why he has a likely fractured psyche, and thus less will than Vader. As for being tortured within an inch of his life, see Vader's reconstruction. Anyone else would have died several times over during that reconstruction. Hours and hours of being operated on, internally and externally, while badly burned across all of his body, and wide awake throughout. Pretty sure that's worse than any torture Maul has ever faced.
4. Maul was begging, begging Palpatine for mercy in The Clone Wars when he lost. Vader has been beaten far more severely several times, both in Legends and Canon, yet we've never once seen Vader beg anyone for anything, much less for mercy (to my knowledge). In a recent Vader comic, his new mechanical body was trashed, and he was badly thrashed by Jedi Master Kirak Infil'a. Did he beg Master Infil'a for mercy? No. He reassembled his body with telekinesis, got right back up, and went to challenge the Jedi Master all over again. That's willpower. Vader has superior Willpower, and you have yet to give a single shred of evidence to the contrary.
I'm done debating this with you. I've said all that I need to say, and if you still disagree, it's clear we're at an impasse and neither will ever convince the other. But at least I have a canon sourcebook on my side to state that Vader's willpower is above Maul's, while you haven't really provided anything to back up your belief that Maul's is above Vader's, beyond a false equivalency of their reconstructions.
Last edited by Underachiever59 on Apr 22nd, 2018 at 03:49 AM
Apr 20th, 2018 06:46 AM
