I made that point to illustrate the difference of how real made-up environments help the actors to act better, which is why I brought up the Terminator references. You're telling me a film company(with perhaps millions of dollars and unlimited areas to receive funding for a project like this) can't re-create the atmosphere on Mustafar? That actors reacting to their environment is worse then sticking them in a ulitarian and bland room with a massive green screen all around them.
Lucas: ' Right Ewan, Hayden, try to imagine in this brightly lit studio with this green screen all around you that you are surrounded by deadly lava, black volcanic rock and debris. We'll tell you when to jump when a jet of molten lava is coming at you, or a column of stone is going to crush you. In the meantime just flail about with your lightsabers for a while (a long while) and keep moving on this specially engineered indoor track. It doesn't matter if you don't react to any of this because its not as if you are ACTUALLY there right? We obviously don't want to give the audience that impression do we?'.
Let me explain what I mean. If the the OT was done the way of the PT this would have happened in ANH, or at least possibly.The first part of ANH is structured around two scenes, The space /Star Detroyer scenes and Tattoine. Had this been the PT way, it probably would have added more viewpoints, thus diluting the point of Luke and Leia being the two most important characters in this initial part of the movie.
Maybe it would have crossed over to to Yavin 4 to add unneeded wieght to the story arc of Leia carrying the plans of the Death Star, including a needless fight scene in the process. Or included a needless scene of Han before he arrived at the Mos Eisley Cantina either starting in space or on the planet (fight scene here perhaps?). Or even shots of Alderaan (because we meet this planet later on so we have to go it now) introducing
another scene which distracts from the relevance of the overall plot. Maybe ships would have been launched from Alderaan cueing a CGI space battle.
The PT does do this, it punctuates important scanes with needless battles and especially with the Jedi launching themselves here and there makes a mockery of Windu's own words, 'We can't fight a war for you, we are not soldiers'. Yet that is all they ever do.
I can say the characters mean nothing because they don't, they are created , staged (as if they are essential) and then...discarded. If they were important they would fit into the overall theme of the entire PT and survive throughout, not become 'bosses' or just obstacles to overcome, like - this is a general perception not just mine - a videogame.
Boba Fett- 2 films.
Jabba the Hutt - 2 films (and referenced throughout ESB).
Wedge Antilles - all 3 films.
Lando Calrissian - 2 films.
Captain/Admiral Piett - 2 films.
These supporting and minor characters all play a part and breed familiarity as we move throughout the adventure and that makes them important. The main bad guy(Darth Vader) is the same as we move through the movies, a new one isn't created every movie and then killed off.
Good point and you are so right. Plus all of these guys have a position where they can inlfuence the fate of our heroes, either help or block them in achieving their goals. Some more important, some less...
Boba Fett gets very little screen time, much less than Jango, yet his actions actually make a difference for the fate of our heroes: Han get captured, which causes Luke to cut off his training and endanger himself by falling for Vader's trap. He survives but has to pay with a severed hand.
Jango... well, he is a supplier of DNA for Clones that were ordered... by whom?? Well, I dunno... but fact is, his existance bears no relevance for the story nor for our heroes. Only in a very very very very indirect way. And indeed, he is treated as a major character, much more than his son ever was.
Some goes for Grievous, Dooku, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo-Koon etc etc... They don't matter. Even Mace I think. His action is prolly to grieve Anakin... and then gets killed by him. In no way does he in fact stand in the way of Anakin's progression as a Jedi. He disagree with his training, yet Anakin gets it anyway... WTF? Compared to him Lando is almost a main character, he even has character development. Mace has none of that.
For me since the na'vi were so blue and big I knew they were cgi and they looked cgi. But the clones could of been guys in suits. A more earthy tone color like jar jar or even the green on yoda is more believable than a bright blue cgi alien
It doesn't have to be concluded though, that can be part of the movie or reading experience to draw your own conclusions. We have to do the same thing for end of ROTJ and just conclude that the empire gave up.
In the movie lukes training can't be any more than a week.
I already explained this that anakin was already turning and giving into hate starting with the council denying his training in episode 1. And he was torn between being a Jedi and his love for padme, and the only way he thinks he could save her was with palps help.
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You do know this is the PT right? Most people have seen th OT so we know what will ultimately happen. We just don't know how. But for peolpe that never saw the OT it's all surprise.
I think if maul had won And killed quigon and some how incapacitated obiwan he may of just left or gone to get the viceroy
Transformers 2 was a box office hit but it doesn't change the fact it was a piece of shit movie. Yes avatar was a believable world but so were alot of other scifi films and as for the cgi of the na'vi, the clones, jar jar, dex, and of course yoda looked better IMO more believable cause they are not a bright blue.
I still don't get what you're trying to say. What are they supposed to do, turn and look at the lava everytime it shoots up so that we know they're reacting to their environment? Breath a little more heavily so we know that they're hot?
You see, I'm not saying you're wrong, but these are the little things that people nitpick over nothing in my opinion. You're letting the fact that they're not reacting to some noise or heat hamper your ability to enjoy this sequence for what it is, an awesome fight.
Somewhere along the line, movie-goers lost their ability to enjoy movies. Suddenly it became this "oh, it's too CGI, and I don't feel married to any of the characters" and all this stuff...when at one point, you could go to a comedy and laugh without feeling a lot of emotion to a character. You could go to an action film and enjoy it for it's action. Now it's "emotional this and emotional that." People can no longer go to a Star Wars movie and it enjoy as a "Sci-Fi" meaning not all the same rules and principals as our universe apply beacuse *sniff sniff...the characters didn't react to Lava." Darn it man, it's sad.
I don't feel anything for "Ace Ventrua" but I sure as hell laugh my you know what off everytime I watch it. Same with Star Wars...I enjoy all six movies as a Sci-Fi adventure for what they are, even if you never quite connect with every single character.
Yes, it would help if they reacted to the conditions of their environment, it makes for a more realistic scene. You believe in it all the more if an actor and yourself can both gauge the world in which they interact in.
When the character and the environment are so displaced from each other it disrupts my enjoyment and makes me feel more distanced from whats happening.
Cool effects? yes it is but it doesn't represent any danger to me within the scene. Why couldn't some lava had say spilt onto Anakin or Obi-Wan and have them react in pain, bringing environment and characters into one? Why can't they recoil initially from the intense heat around them, get dusty and dirty from the debris? This all but one example so please, stop saying I dislike the movie just because of the lava scene.
Then you go on to say that emotional attachment is bad. How is it bad? It made the OT iconic and successful because you felt real relationships were born out of this rebellion against the Empire. The best way I can reference this is the scene at the end of ANH, where they have destroyed the Death Star and they meet up at the rebel base, cheering and clapping each other on the back. Genuine emotion, genuine chemistry between the actors. People say the PT doesn't have this because of the situation of the film i.e. war and strife. How is this different to the OT?
Then what you're saying is that ordering the clone army is not really relevant for the story. But why more than an hour of a whole movie is spent in working out who that was, that is not a problem to you? Weird...
No, according to SW chronology it lasted several months.
So what you're saying about Anakin is that he always was a dark sider, a bad guy, falling for hate and anger. And there you have the other problem: we never really get to cheer for Anakin as a hero. It makes him as 'greatest starpilot of the universe' and a 'good friend' non-existent in the PT and therefore a lousy main character that we cannot sympathise with.
Exactkly my point. The only point to the duel is, with a lot of thtinking through and through and through, the OT. It suggests Anakin falls to the dark side because QGJ doesn't train him. If we don't know about the OT, this fight is absolutely about nothing. Just eye candy.
No, bright green... and Jar Jar bright orange... so?
Lord Shadow, I didn't say that emotional attachment was bad. Least I don't think I did or used those words, but if it came across that way, I didn't mean for it too.
What I was simply stating was the fact that it's a sci-fi movie made for entertainment purposes, and sometimes people let themselves get too worked up over little things that they overlook the overall intention of the movie. When it comes to a film like say, Die-Hard...I don't remember the character of John McLaren as this 3 dimensional emotionally deep person with all this richness and depth...I remember him as pretty much, a bada$$, and that I had fun watching him shoot the living daylights out of everyone. It's an action film, and I enjoy it as an action film and nothing more. I don't spend the next 12 years of my life questioning what motivation he had to become a cop and why he puts himself through one obstacle after another. I just take it for what it is.
I think you're right when it comes to enchancing the overall scene if characters reacted more to their obstacles. You're not wrong. I'm just saying that I don't let little things like that ruin scenes for me, and that I'm able to take the PT at face value for what it is and enjoy it. They're not the OT of course, but they were never intended to be either, just pretty much a backstory to expand the SW universe.
Pretty much it.
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Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 8th, 2011 at 08:21 PM
They were reacting to the environment. They were hot and sweaty and they sure as hell jumped out of the way when the lava erupted and their clothes were chard by end of the fight. take a look at their clothes before and after the fight. Plus I'm pretty sure they were some what using the force to shield themselves and the droids and platforms they were on had shields when they were above the lava pool
I'm not saying that. Ordering the clone army was totally relevant. This is allows palps to gain control of the war and the republic and bring down the Jedi. And they weren't working it out for an hour. They were questioning who could of ordered it only for a while and then they were given no choice and forced to use them other wise the sepratiats would win.
MONTHS!!!?? Don't think so a week maybe two at most. No way were Han and the gang on the run for months!
We already know anakins demise so it may be hard for some of us to cheer for him. But for someone who saw the PT first they can. I have to say even though I knew he would turn I was cheering for him in the pod race and while they were chasing zam and fight dooku. Anakin was a good friend if obiwan and he was the greatest star pilot in the galaxy (pod race, speeder chase, and the battle over coruscant all prove this)
No if you don't know about the OT that fight does mean some thing. If maul wins, then he would certainly go after the queen etc. Even if knew about the OT the fight still means something cause anything could of happened to turn the tables.
They are NOT bright. The na'vi are brightly colored.
FYI I would of loved to of seen the reveal of maul being when the doors open he is hacking down a bunch of naboo guards with a single blade then he reveals the double blade (wish they hadn't shown that in the trailers or the toys it would of been so much better)
Again, wrong. The Clone Army was relevant for Palpy's rise to power. Ordering the clone army is not! And that is what OB1 is after in AOTC - from Jango (the DNA model of the clones) to Kamino (Where clones were made) to who ordered that. All is irrelevant in the end because we never get the answers and the few answers we get (Tyrannus/Dooku hired Jango) leave us completely blank. So AOTC is obsolete. We don't need to know how the Clone Army came about (and we still don't) to see how Palpy sued the Clone Army to rise to power. The fact we watch something like an hour at that is ridiculous.
They have to travel to Bespin without lightspeed. That could be a long trip.
I did some looking up and it seems the official LFL time span is six weeks.
The point is: we should be able to cheer for Anakin. That's the drama: a good person chooses for the Dark Side. That was the very reason Lucas always said he wanted to make the PT, to show how certain choices in life may send you off in a good or a bad direction. But all Anakin does is choose for bad things. It should have reflected Luke's life: a promising lad, starts off becomes a hero and gets faced with the choice for good or bad. Luke chose good, Anakin chose bad.
But since Anakin got mad at ten, he was grumpy ever since. He never grew into a consciencuously good adult who then chose for bad. He was bad before he hit puberty.
And that we cannot cheer for Anakin is the major failure of the PT, it was THE challenge and Lucas failed.
Anakin was NOT a good friend.... We never see him as a 'good friend', and therefore cinematically he isn't. They talk about good times, but what we see is Anakin complaining about OB1, disobeying him and arguing with him in a condescending way. I don't know about your friends, but I wouldn't like people like that as my friend.
Anything yes... anything. But in a movie we need to KNOW what's at stake. Apart from a 'revenge on the Jedi' for no clear reason, there is nothing at stake. Only that maybe some other things MIGHT happen... And why would Maul go after the queen??? He is an attack dog, trained to kill. Palpy doesn't want the queen to die, she has to sign some kind of weird treaty.... That's not a job for Maul... The only reason Maul is there to have revenge on the Jedi... for some reason, we don't really know why he wants revenge... TPM or any of the other movies don't tell us.
You just pointed out the weakness of the fight yourself: it's not clear what's at stake, so why do we need to care?
Do you expect them to show up at kamenio and a clone army is created and they just say thanks? We do get the answers, but you have to think about it and peice it together which may be difficult for some. Syfo Dias (dooku) ordered the clones and hired jango. All this becomes clear when palps executes order 66. It's at that point especially if you haven't seen the OT that you find out he is the one behind the clone order.
6 weeks is not months it's a month and a half.
We are able to cheer for anakin! As I said in the pod race the space battle, speeder chase, on geonosis in the arena and against dooku etc. He does make good choices, he falls in love and gets married and has kids.
Anakin wasn't bad from 10 he was just a little pissed. It's not as if as soon as he became a padawan he started hacking everyone down with his light saber.
Anakin was a good friend. him and obiwan were together for 10 years! And had many adventures. Which a few are shown in ep 2 and 3
Jebus!! We do know what is at stake! Its the future of naboo and the queen. Maul was ordered to find the queen in the first place and take her to naboo to sign the treaty. So if he were to of killed the Jedi he would of taken care of the guards and got to the queen.
It will somewhat get clear for people who watch closer. But people who don't think: WTF. And we look at it closer, it's kinda boring.
It's not two weeks either.
There was a certain consensus for a while it lasted three months. But hey, we don't really know.
In the pod race he's just a kid. A little boy, who doesn't really choose. He just does it coz he likes it.
After that Anakin is just an arrogant brat who thinks he's the greatest, should have more freedom and constantly and unwisely demonstrates he's extremely cocky. What's to cheer about?
And his choices? He chooses Padme because.... well, we don't know. All we get is that he's had the hots for her since he was ten even though he hasn't seen her since... bizarre.
OB1 and Anakin were together because the council put them together, not because they chose to. Again: we don't SEE the good friendship. What we SEE is that they don't get along. They TALK about 'fun' adventures, but talk is talk and this is a movie. The rest is boring talk and exposition.
And then what? We don't know what's at stake.... What was the treaty exactly? What was it about? That the trade federation could trade on Naboo??? And if she did sign, Naboo would be in danger because... ???
And if Maul had survived he would have gone to the queen with his big double lighsabre, lean over her, growl and.... make her sign a treaty!!! OOOoooooooohhh..... how scary...... I can't bear to watch...
Come on, dude. You're entitled to like it but you gotta admit it's all kinda lame.
Sorry I don't have to admit it's lame. Cause I don't think it's. I really enjoyed the PT and thought it was like the OT with great effects and great story telling and done by a guy with a wonderful imagination. The way it turned out was fine. It was palps plan all along to be able to become chancellor. But I don't think he intended to loose maul.
Actually, it seems pretty reasonable to me, for a number of reasons. Anakin comes from a dirty, dusty, hostile planet who's probably never seen anyone so clean and as beautiful as Padme. Notice Luke's reaction when he's sees the holigram of Leia for the first time..."Who is she? She's beautiful." Sure, he doesn't drool all over her, but he gazes at her and is obviously taken away by her beauty.
For Anakin, Pamde was the first time he'd ever seen something so georgous in his life, hence why he ask her if she's an Angel. After this moment, his life completely changes by becoming a Jedi, so it's likely that Padme, along with his mother, was one of the fondest memories he had before leaving his home behind to persue his dreams. Therefore, he builds an attachment to her.
There are things about my life that I have not done in over 10 years, and people I havent seen in over 10 years, that I still care a great deal about because of an attachment I made to it, or memories I have of it.
We can say the same of many characters. Pick any "behind the shadows" character from the PT and it fits your requirement for an interesting character.
1. Bobba Fett got plenty of screen time in Episode II. As did Bobba Fett. The times were almost equal.
2. Jango Fett directly influenced the plot in a very huge way: the friggin' clone army.
3. We don't know who ordered them? That was a mystery element that was not resolved until it was revealed that a now called Darth Tyranus had placed the order. It was an excellent plot point and created a nice little mystery for the diverged plots of Obi Wan and Anakin.
4. Without his existence, we wouldn't have the clone army patterned after the most talented, clever, and powerful mandalorian in the galaxy, we wouldn't have an insta-army to battle the serparatist droid army, and the separatists would have rolled over the republic. The entire plot leading up the empire's creation would have completely fallen apart. Guess what that means? No original trilogy because we have no emperor ruling the empire: we have the separatists ruling instead causing palpitine's plot to completely fail. My my, doesn't Jango look awfully important, now?
1. I can make a list like that, too, just from Episode IV: General Dodonna, General Willard, Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, Grand Moff Tarkin, Greedo, Red 2-4, etc. etc.
2. Why would a Jedi Master and Council Member receive character development? You'd think that the top of a religious order that focuses on control of the mind, thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. would have a character cemented in their personalities and experience little to no character dynamics, right? I mean, to give them some sort of character dynamic would actually be illogical and create a source of a plot hole: which the anti-PT folks would also complain about. Mace should NOT have seen character development: he should have been a solid bastion of the epitome of controlled Jedi power of which he was. Only a meddling brat, which was absolutely necessary for the fall to the dark side, could take out that power-house. Mace's character was one of the absolute best things about the PT and the PT era. Of all the things you could complain about, Mace is one of the last things that you should find fault with.
3. Anakin got trained is a problem for you? Why aren't you criticizing Luke's training, who was MUCH older and far less mold-able than Anakin, for the same reason's you criticizing Anakin's predicament?
You're correct. He did not intend to lose Maul but it was accounted for. Palpy had back-up plan after Back-up plan. Maul was supposed to defeat Gin and Obi and then lead the separatist army.
Also, ditto on the PT. I love them both and they are both delicious movie masterpieces.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Jan 9th, 2011 at 09:53 PM
We don't need to know where Palps got thousands of highly trained and armed soldiers from so he could wage a war he frabricated, so he could win the hearts and minds of the Jedi with them, so he could get them to trust them so much that order 66 would be effective, so he could use them to take over and create the empire, so he could create the back drop for how he rose to power for the most excellent OT, right? We don't need any of that information. We should just wish thousands of highly capable and equipped soldiers out of thin air for the sake of progression the plot, right?
You're not making sense.
Shit was getting real and Obi-Wan had to get to the bottom of it. Obi-Wan was just a pawn of Palpy and he played right into Palpy's plans. The Clone Army is SUPER DUPER important to the entire plot of Star Wars. Without them, we have no plot after epsidoe one, making all remaining 5 movies obsolete.
And I repeat: the Clone Army was important to the plot of Star Wars, how it was ordered or whose DNA it was, IS NOT! It has no effect to the heroes. Remember, this story is about Anakin... no one else.
How does the ordering of the Clone Army by Sifo Dyas affect Anakin's story?
How does Jango affect Anakin's story? He never even meets the guy, nor does the guy do anything for Anakin's story arc. Nothing at all?
How does Grievous affect Anakin's story? Hardly?
Even Dooku... how does he affect Anakin's story? Maybe he speeds up his fall... maybe.... because the very reason he decides to join Palps has nothing to do with Dooku, it has to do with Padme.
If anything, the PT is so cramped with so many storylines, it's so very ambitious that it fails to make it comprehensive. I mean, we know how most of these things are connected, but many non-SW fans failed to appreciate the films, with the excepetion of ROTS. Most of what Lucas is trying to tell deludes an average viewer, and it's not like we're watching War and Peace or anything.
SW is supposed to be simple. Now it's cramped with a lot of stuff and the main story arc has become simplistic. Anakin's story is weak... very weak. There's a lot of great eye candy, the PT has its moments, but on the whole it's just too much non-essential details and too uninspired.
Possibly to help them become 'guardians of peace and justice' would be a start. It would be quite handy to ascribe to 'good' emotions in order to know that they are doing right by the universe they are watching over. If they are taught to control all emotion like a Vulcan (a similar emotion suppressing race), then they are inevitably are going to come up against barriers which goes against their role in the long run.
If they spend all that time in the movie being so staid and controlled in their emotions how can they deal with issues that require emotional guidance when they themselves are more logical thinking?. As we saw with the film Equilibrium suppressing emotion only de-sensitized humans to the point where they didn't consider what they doing to be 'bad'.
Mace was boring... zero warmth and completely contradictory, he argues that the Jedi can't fight wars and they...do. He doesn't want Anakin to be trained but he lets him, he thinks Anakin's untrustworthy but he trusts him, he goes from a calm, logical, neutral looking Jedi and turns into an aggressive fight-starting policeman (see also Obi-Wan, Yoda). What happened to this calm considered religious order you speak of? Or peaceful zen like religion that considered warriors/war to not be 'great'. Funny how Mace, Qui-Gon, Anakin, PT-Yoda and and PT-Obi-Wan (handing Anakin his lightsaber in AOTC and saying 'this is your life!' hmm.) failed to get this message when they ran into every battle as if they couldn't wait. Very controlled, peace loving folk...
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