I don't understand what you are saying here. Yes, I'm serious.
Also, what do you mean "bad faith"?
Please stop speaking cryptically and just tell me what it is you're trying to say.
And, please do not call me obtuse. I've been more than civil.
That's not cryptic, at all. I wanted him to show us/me that same development that he was asking me to show.
Here's another example of what I was asking:
*Person B rappels down a cliff. Moments later, Person A aproaches while Perso B's rappeling attempt plays back on a large screen*
Person A: "Can you prove that you can rappel down this cliff?"
Peson B: "Can you rappel down this cliff?"
Why would I ask him? Because I already did so...but not in an exhaustive manner. I thought his question was a bit strange considering I did just what he wanted, prior. I had no idea what his angle on the conversation was: trolling, being a dick, etc. As I found out, later, being a dick was his exact goal because he didn't think Anakin had very good character development. In admiral Ackbar's words, "It's a trap!" and it was obviously so.
That makes no sense. How in the world was asking him the same question in any way "correcting" him? It makes more sense that he thought my top post to Queeq about middle school English class was the correction.
First, I would have had to quote my section in order to indicate that they were not my words. Second, I would have had to put brackets around the added section like so: [me]. Lastly, I would have indicated "fixed" or "corrected. It makes no sense that simply adding "us/me" in there indicates a correction because in "us" a "me" is also included. That's not only not a correction it would be making what he said an incorrect way of expressing that.
Do not put words in my "mouth":
I said, "If" not "you do not know how to use a message board." I even told him "no worries" to indicate that I was not pissed about him going off on me and to show a light tone in my post, meaning, it wasn't even close to a diatribe.
It is still possible that I made a mistake about what he meant about correcting but it makes very little sense in context, which I've explained.
What behavior? This is not the first time you've done this: you've warned me be I do not know what for. Granted, you said you would warn me, but that was for something completley different that what you've just warned me for. What did I do wrong? I did not make fun of you, I did not make fun of others, I did not insult you, and I did not insult others. I asked for clarification from you.
I cannot improve my posting "behavior" if I don't know what I did wrong.
And, please, quote the specific sections of the posts that you are calling in the question: I can't keep track of what you're referring to.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Feb 7th, 2011 at 01:18 PM
You are just trying my patience by claiming that your original answer to him was not a useless one, and if you are going to post in such a weird way you must accept that your meaning is therefore going to be lost. As your reply seemed so ridiculous- just parroting what he said, but adding the 'us/me' bit, it looked like you were correcting his English. You don't seem to understand that process, but it looks perfectly clear to me why he would come to that conclusion. Your idea that, if someone asks you to show them something in order to demonstrate it, answering back with "you show ME" is in any way logical or reasonable is also just plain dumb.
That being so, you could have explained what you meant- the onus was on you as you were exceptionally unclear. Instead you launched an attack on him- and yes, it was an attack.
You definitely and clearly made the mistake and really, you owe him an apology.
If you genuinely can't see what is wrong with your posting behaviour then I feel sorry for you, as your behaviour here makes it obvious to most. I have made my point clear, and I can only repeat that if you carry on posting like that you will be banned. In future, check MUCH more carefully before you launch such a condescending attack on another poster asking you a reasonable question. You need to think a lot more about others.
That's an end to the matter; it is not to be discussed here any more.
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BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Feb 7th, 2011 at 01:41 PM
Ushgarak, I want to make amends with you and to make you happy with me as a poster. If you have any other advice, please PM me. I will not respond to it, at all: honest. I'll adopt it into my posting behavior.
Darth Angel, I owe you an apology: I apologize for confusing posts up like that and for posting to you in a condescending manner. I'll go back through my posts and find the one where I mentioned Anakin's character development.
Telling te events that someone goes through is not development.
Character development is how someone is a different person AFTER the events he goes through.
Now, it's clear AOTC Anakin is different from somewhat positive, helpful little Anakin. What events caused that, we don't really know since all that takes place between TPM and AOTC.
But in TPM Anakin is same at the moment QGJ meets him as he is at the end of TPM - same character, different occupation.
In the beginning of AOTC, Anakin is a grumpy, whiny, disobedient and arrogant guy... and at the end of AOTC he is still like that, except married. But he's still the same.
At the beginning of ROTS, Anakin is a grumpy, whiny, disobedient and arrogant guy (but now with the rank of Jedi Master)... and before he turns into fried bacon, he is still that. And then gets a suit and yells no and adds 'pi$$ed of' to his character set... which kinda complies nicely with what he already was. Now, IMHO, that's not character development.
Compare that to Luke. After at the end of each film, Luke is a different person than in the beginning.
ANH - from whiny, adolescent kid to almost grown up achiever (who taken his first steps into a larger universe)
ESB: from still slighty whiny to a wiser guy who's had a serious reality check: the adolescent days are over
ROTJ - Luke has grown up and is willing to sacrifice himself to save his father, he is even willing to suffer the greatest pain. Luke in ROTJ is no longer whiny...
Um no. Thats far from the only reason. One of the major reasons is it was a great movie the first time around and they feel if they re-make it into todays standards they will have another cash cow. It's all about the money in Hollywood.
I for one wish they'd quit re-making the hell out of everything. Not every movie needs a reboot or sequel.
It's alright dudemon, I didn't take any real offense really. So, I will not insist on this very much further, I just really wanted to pointing out that Anakin Skywalker really had no character development, but since you said he had in the first place, you had the burden of proof on you.
Anyway, I will try to show you why I believe this.
In TMP he has no development whatsoever, don't even need to discuss this right?
In AOTC we know that Anakin complains a lot, likes to murder people, women and children included, we know that he thinks that Natalie Portman is hot as hell (who doesn't think anyway lol) and that his humor is very unstable. Anyway, from the begining to the end I can't say anything changed because he ended pretty much the same he was already (minus some dead bodies he left behind in the sands).
In ROTS, well, he is pretty much the same guy from the last movie, and we also learn that he is extremely dumb and makes decisions NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD would do if we were in his situation. And that's a hell of a major point in a movie, because it really takes to garbage a potential link to the audience. Let's be honest, would anyone do what he did, turning to the dark side like that? Well, only if he was already in the darkside, but them don't try to sell us that he was actually one of the good guys to begin with. So or he was either in the darkside the moment he killed the sand people or he was really, how they call it, yeah that's it, DUMB
Come on, he has a vision of padme screaming and turns to the dark side because of that? And because Sidious said he would save her? Of course he would said that! That's so obvious! And he can't even realize that? ANYONE in this world would not believe on Sidious, not even my 10 year old cousin, even he would not accept the candy from mister creepy looks...
Queeq also makes some valid points about Luke's character. In fact, if you see it, Leia or Han also suffered development. Damn, even Darth Vader changed, from the most bad guy on the universe to a caring father! In ROTJ's last 15 minutes, we see more character development from Darth Vader then we saw in all 3 prequels from Anakin.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Last edited by Darth Angel on Feb 8th, 2011 at 12:41 AM
I have seen enough of the cartoons and am a big enough fan of comic book characters to care about them and how they are done on the screen. For me both f4 movies were good and I really enjoyed the 2nd punisher movie with Thomas Jane. And wish he could of stayed in the franchise. But things like hulk and spiderman and superman returns definatly needed another kick at the cat.
I disagree and I requoted myself showing why he's "different."
However, there's still a bit of the ol' whiny boy in AOTC Anakin.
Additionally, we do see lots of development in AOTC anakin, as well. He goes ape-shit on a tribe of Sandpeople: something we did not see expressed in the young boy self.
Not really: he's a lot more somber and controlled by the end of TPM. I explained why, already, as well.
We also get to explore why he acts/feels that way, as well. AKA, explaining the character development from TPM through AOTC. The ROTJ doesn't do nearly as good of a job of explaining Luke's progress into his "wise" and controlled Jedi Knight demeanor: we just assume that completing his training is the thing that did it for him. Granted, I LOVE how that change was portrayed and I really could not think of a better way, I'm just pointing out that the character development was less for Luke, by far, than it was for Anakin.
I disagree. He's not grumpy and he's not whiny. He seems to have developed a better relationship with Obi Wan and he's wiser. He's also more controlled. He's also more reserved. We see that, clearly, when he acknowledges to Obi Wan his mistake in trying to take on Dooku, by himself, in AOTC. (I laugh, because it was a hard lesson to learn. hehehe)
I don't see much character development in ANH form Luke, at all. I see the same whiny kid from ANH through ESB. He's rash, impatient, but willing to learn, in the first two films. One thing that sets him apart is how whiny he is in the first two films. What people forget is Luke is SUPPOSED to be like that. That was the goal. Therefore, IMO, it is not a legit complaint to say that Luke is a crappy character (you can dislike the character because he's whiny, but you cannot dislike the character because he's whiny...I know that doesn't make sense, but think of it as cricizing the writing technique of GL versus not liking how a character acts in the fictional universe) because he is whiny: he's SUPPOSED to be like that.
I can't argue with anything you've stated because it's opinion. I think the things you've named ARE character development and show a nice change, and you don't. We will never reconcile that, so I see not point in discussing it.
However, your above section I can talk about.
Sidious promised a really big piece of information to Anakin about using the force to create/revive life. That quieted his very real concerns. On top of that, Jedi can easily sense sincerity. Sidious, out of anyone ever in all of Star Wars, is the best "deceiver". Anakin had every reason to believe him and really no reason to not believe him. He had also grown up getting mentored by Sidious so it wasn't as if Anakin was meeting a stranger who gave an empty promise.
Sidious needed anakin and would say and do anything to get him and anakin felt he needed sidious to save padme as per his dreams of her that were the same he had of his mother. He lost his mother and saw it coming and didn't want to have the same thing happen to padme.
That's a quite a bunch of character development and story. That's part of the reason I cannot agree with the claims that Anakin had little character development and the PT had a shallow story.
THere's not a lot of develpmont in Anakin. Reading your posts he is more sombre, more this more that... but still much the same except innuances there's a slight difference. There's not much.
And I cannot believe you say Luke in ANH is the same as in ESB. The way he's a pilot with Dack during the Hoth battle is soooo mich different from Luke as a pilot in ANH. He has matured. The little scene with Dack saying he felt like he could take on the entire uneverse... that's exactly how Luke felt in ANH when he took off. Now he's grown beyond that... that little scene shows it all.
And the whininess with Yoda is very different from going to Toshi station... it's about things that for rational people seem impossible. So it's much more grounded in an unForce like common sense and disappointment in himself ("You want the impossible") than in other (i,e, Uncle Owen in ANH). That's progression, that's development.
By your logic, Luke experiences even less character development and so, your criticism of the PT actually applies even more heavily on the OT, meaning, you should conclude the that character development of Anakin is better than that of Luke, and, by extension, like the PT better than the OT (if that was your main criticism.)
No, it shows he's the exact same in that scene as the one in ANH, by your own indication between ANH and ESB. There's also the problem of Luke whining in ESB just as much as ANH.
That's very poor logic, imo: You're saying that Luke's whining in ESB about having to perform a task is somehow different than the whining in ANH about...having to perform a task.
In ANH Luke is whiny because he wants to have fun with his friends. In ESb he complains because the task appears to be to great for him. So his whining is different.
And the 'logic' you refer to is utter nonsense of course. Luke grows from a whiney kid into an adult who doesn't whine at all and is willing to sacrifice his life for what he believes in. Anakin changes from a very grumpy arrogant young man to a bit more grumpy and arrogant man... and finally falls for a lie he briefly believed in but knew it was a lie after he turned... There is a huge difference.
IMO Anakin went from being an innocent kid in tpm to being a cocky bratty teen in atoc to a more mature young man in rots but he is obviously still learning and over confidant. His maturity shows while he's fighting dooku and while escaping grievous's ship. Also when he learns who sidious is. I think the younger anakin would of just hacked him down. Instead of talking to him and then going of to tell mace.
And it wasnt really a lie he fell for after he turned, again sidious was using him to get what he wants and they would have to work together to figure out how to cheat death. He's team building.
No, he's still whining at an authority figure about having to do something. Whining is whining and that's part of Luke's "young" character. A whiner whines about having to do something, regardless of the task. That's what makes them a whiner. Trying to rationalize his whining as "righteous" or something is not doing it for me. There's no such thing as righteous whining. It's still whining.
Do you agree that Luke goes from a whiny teenager with a good heart to a wise young man with a good heart?
Anakin grows from a very trusting, fun-loving, carefree, mechanical genius kid, into a depressed a**hole with a chip on his shoulder. There's a greater dichotomy with Anakin so by your logic, you should like Anakin and the PT, more. Keep in mind that these are not my opinions: I'm just applying your points fairly to the PT and the OT. I think Luke's whiny-ness is important because it shows us some nice character development from a teenager to an adult wise beyond his years in RoTJ. I absolutely LOVE his character development from ANH-ESB to RoTJ. Imma go out on a limb and say that I like Luke's more than Anakin's because I already knew what was going to happen with Anakin's...Luke's was a surprise for me and I loved the shit out of his RoTJ character. As a kid, I wanted to be like Luke, as did probably every one of us. Anakin's character? Not so much. Sure, I would love to have his ROTS outfit...which is pretty damn cool. But that's because I'm a super nerd. Everyone would rather be like Luke than Anakin...well, for the most part. Some would rather be Vader, though.
Yes, taht is the development we see in stages - within ANH (due to the events happening in the movie: meeting OB1, losing his aunt and uncle, destroying the Death Star), a little bit between the movies (at the beginning of ESB he is more mature than he was at the end of ANH - see convo with Dak) - within ESB (from still a bit whiny to more controlled ("OB1 has taught you well. You contyrol your fear."). And in ROTJ we see him as a mature man.
The color scheme also supports this development by the way. In ANH he wears white (young/innocent), in ESB he's cald in brown (for growing older) and in ROTJ he wears black only (he's grown up.)
Good point. But we don't actually SEE any of this, nor do we know what caused it. We just see grumpy Anakin in AOTC. Why he is like that, we have no clue. So we see a change, because the script requires him to be different. Bt we don't understand him. Lack of motivation is one of the greatest weakness of the PT.
Hahaha, true. (See Volkswagen commercial)
Well, I always liked the original concept in that Anakin and Luke are very much alike. They are both heroes from a worldly view, they both have great Force potential. Yet one chooses to go one way, the other another way, a darker way. Why this happens is interesting because it's about lessons learned. Lucas always wanted to show that choosing a path is a matter of choice. An understandable choice, but always a choice.
My gripe with the Anakin character as shown in the PT is that we don't get him. We don't know what he wants (other than 'more', 'I want but I shouldn't', 'he's holding me back') But what it is he wants is never clear. We also don't see what he does to acquire it, nor do we see consequences for trying to acquire it.
1. He sulks about OB1, disobeys him but never goes against him directly. And his disobedience has no consequence
2. Slaughtering Tuskens. Not really something that helps him in whatever his quest is, it's just a spontaneous thing which doesn't even have consequences for him. No barring from the Jedi, no girl that hates him for it... Heck no, he even gets the girl for going against all the rules of the establishment and common decency.
3. He marries Padme (one of the crucial elements of Anakin's story). Not allowed, doesn't matter, no one finds out, even after two years. It doesn't affect his "path" to become the greatest Jedi ever.
4. After submitting to Sidious he hears the whole 'bringing back to life' thing is BS. That was the one thing he wanted to learn which the Jedi didn't teach him... so becoming the greatest Jedis still an obscure thing maybe in the future...
Point is: the PT has no consequences...
Now back to the OT - everything Luke does, has consequences.
ANH: Going on an adventure with OB1 gets him caught by the Empire, they nearly get killed, he joins the end battle and becomes the hero of the Rebellion.
ESB: Destroying the DS now makes the Empire strike back severly, causing a serious blow to the Rebellion. Luke leaves the Rebellion for a while to go on training... no idea if this is allowed, but it does take him away from his friends who get in mortal danger. The choice to go training with Yoda makes him stronger in the Force but he also meets his weaknesses. He's rash to meet Vader, loses his hand and finds out a terrible truth.
ROTJ: Result of the Empire's invasion - Han is captured. Luke has to get him back. His rash departure from Yoda, means he can hardly fulfill his traing. The old guy is dying. Luke decides to meet Vader - to determine his own fate and that of his Father. The Rebellion has licked its wounds from ESB and tries a last desparate attempt to destroy the Empire...
Cause and consequence, one thing driven by motivation leads to another, causing plans to be altered, things to go wrong etc. Motivation, cause and consequence... all that is so absent in the PT.
He won the pod race and is freeed as a slave and as a result can train to become a Jedi.
He goes off half cocked to find his mother against obiwans orders. As a result takes a step closer to the darkside. Then he goes off with padme to geonosis to rescue obiwan against the councils orders. As a result gets captured and then attacks dooku without the help of obiwan against obiwans orders and looses his arm. Then gets married against Jedi rules.
He takes off dooku's head and takes another step to the dark side.
He goes back to palps office even though mace said not to and as a result takes the final step to the darkside. By helping to kill mace and joining sidious. He chokes padme (open to interpretation here) and kills her or as a result of that choking she dies of a broken heart?
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Feb 7th, 2011 01:14 PM
(I laugh, because it was a hard lesson to learn. hehehe)
