Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
Lol it did the first 10 posts or so after that it just kind of "degenerated."
(lol I use quotes because this is probably the only time when it would be right to say a conversation going from Star Wars to real world events is a degeneration.)
that's not true, i've been making comparisson's in several of my posts. and your response is usually along the lines of 'yeah, but Bush can't shoot lightening' like thats something we needed you to inform us on... you keep citing propoganda as to why Bush and the Emperor don't share similarites when my first ten post laid it out nice and simple. I showed all the steps to a dictarship which Bush is following, now whether anything comes of it remains to be seen, but none the less, the similarites are many.
Bush: entered us into a bs war under false pretenses to distract people form real problems going on/Palps: entered into a bs war under false pretenses to distract the galaxy from what he was really doing.
Bush: allowed and no doubt told his administration through careful control of the media, speeches, etc to create an air of fear throughout the country so people would grant the administration further authority through the Patirot Act/ Palps: carefully controled several people/organizations/etc to create an air of fear throughout the galaxy which led to a war which led to him being granted emergency powers.
Bush: used the capture of sadaam to make himself look like a strong leader/ Palps: used the death of Dooku to make himself look like a strong leader.
Bush: Carefully made it seem like Sadaam was a threat in order to invade Iraq/ Palps: Carefully made the Jedi look like the villians in order to wipe them out.
U.S.: Denounces naysayers as unpatriotic so they're afraid to say anything/ Empire: Denounces naysayers as unpatirotic so they're afraid to say anything.
U.S.: Uses military might to get what it wants/ Empire: Uses military might to get what it wants.
U.S.: Gives the government more power than they should have in the name of security (patriot act)/ Empire: Gives Chancellor more power than they should have in the name of security.
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
Your point is taken but I disagree. If it wasn't so late I would make a chart listing events in the films and events in world politics and comparing them. I think going point for point would show it's pretty different even if there are some similarities.
I mean, we could compare the plot of the PT to a lot of things and find some similarities. We'd also find a lot of differences.
lol and I never stated anything nearly as literal as to say Bush can't shoot lightning. The closest I came was saying that, as in our comparison the terrorists are the Jedi, for it to be the same Bush would need to hunt down every Muslim to match up.
Honestly, I think the biggest difference is in intention. I don't think anyone (well, most anyone) would try to say Bush planned all along to gain ultimate power and set up the war to do that. You can say he had other objectives which he used the war as a guise for, like oil or something, but he never sought out to rule the world or anything.
I'm a huge believer that intention means SO much more than action in almost every case. For instance: Fred hates Mike, so he tries to beat him to death, but in the end only breaks a few bones. Edith has a drink too many and accidently runs over Emily on the way home, killing her. (While irresponsible and reprehensible in it's own way,) Edith IMO should receive less punishment than Fred, because of the intention. (Note that it does not work this way in most societies, unfortunately. Like the charge of attempted murder. Why do you get less punishment just because you fail? )
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
Actually, Palpatine was not trying to distract people. He created the war so that he could elminate the threat of the Trade Federation's droid army to his power. Bush was not seeking to eliminate a threat to power.
Bush: Carefully made it seem like Sadaam was a threat in order to invade Iraq/ Palps: Carefully made the Jedi look like the villians in order to wipe them out.
Difference is that the Jedi were not a threat wheras, whether or ot he was an immediate threat, Saddam most certainly was. (And Russian intelligence said he was an immediate threat.)
U.S.: Gives the government more power than they should have in the name of security (patriot act)/ Empire: Gives Chancellor more power than they should have in the name of security.
Difference is that the Patriot Act gives the government body as a whole very specific and enumerated powers whereas the Chancellor ALONE is given UNSPECIFIC and NONENUMERATED powers, much as Hitler was in the 1930s.
Again, there are similarities but also many differences.
anyway...I listed similarites in an effort to keep this thread on track. So where's your awesome list?
And you're right, you didn't make the lighening crack. Another guy did on page one, but I find you responses just as silly sometimes. So make your list. That's on track and I'd like to where you think they're similar...
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
The biggest difference like I said is that all along Palpatine was planning and scheming for one purpose and one purpose only: he was manipulating everything and everyone so he could acheice ultimate power and single handidly rule the galaxy.
Bush, depending on what camp you fall into, had the intention of one of two things:
A) protect the country, but he is incompetant and messed up
B) acheive financial gain through oil, either for himself or more
likely for the country as a whole
"Actually, Palpatine was not trying to distract people. He created the war so that he could elminate the threat of the Trade Federation's droid army to his power. Bush was not seeking to eliminate a threat to power. "
Wrong, Palps started the whole Trade Federation involvement to garner simpathy for a rebellion against the Republic. See TPM for the example, its the WHOLE MOVIE!!!
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"Bush: Carefully made it seem like Sadaam was a threat in order to invade Iraq/ Palps: Carefully made the Jedi look like the villians in order to wipe them out."-me
"Difference is that the Jedi were not a threat wheras, whether or ot he was an immediate threat, Saddam most certainly was. (And Russian intelligence said he was an immediate threat.)"-your response to me
Ahh. but that's not what Palps told the people of the Republilc did he? he said they made an attempt on his life. he spun it into them BEING a threat. Much like Bush said to us. "oh, he's a threat...he's got WMD". which ended up being bs, much like the jedi "rebellion"
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"U.S.: Gives the government more power than they should have in the name of security (patriot act)/ Empire: Gives Chancellor more power than they should have in the name of security."--me
"Difference is that the Patriot Act gives the government body as a whole very specific and enumerated powers whereas the Chancellor ALONE is given UNSPECIFIC and NONENUMERATED powers, much as Hitler was in the 1930s". --your response to me
Yes, but in our world we have a whole Administration who now has more power, and who runs it? Bush. So it is very similar.
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"Again, there are similarities but also many differences. "--you
but the differences are in tiny details, not the overall concepts. Conceptually, they're very similar. And its the concepts that affect everything, not the tiny details.
he doesn't need to. No one will oppose us because they fear retribution, so in a way, he does. Again, this is the difference between a "kids" movie and the gray areas of the real world. In the real world, he doesn't need to, as I've just pointed out.
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
A list (tired, btw):
Bush: Responded, either correctly or not, to 9/11 attacks initiated by Al Qaeda, and outside entity/Palpatine: Created an attack by the Trade Federation, an entity under his control
(sort of the difference between calling 911 when a fire starts and starting the fire yourself before calling 911)
Bush: Was elected into power through a predetermined, scheduled election during time of unprecedented peace when no violence was expected to push his peacetime ideas which he felt best to help the citizens of the republic, only to be met with a surprise attack/Palpatine: Manipulated people into granting him power during a time of "war", in the process forcing out a previous leader in an unscheduled effort, one completely of his own design, to push his own rise to power regardless of the effect on the citizens of the republic
Bush: used an army already in existence created for the permanent, long term defense of the republic to attack a perceived (whether correctly or not) threat and end a dictatorship/ Palpatine: Personally created an army for the purpose of a one time attack against his enemies, the droid armies, which were threats to his power, and used them in the aftermath to impose a dictatorship.
this will no doubt be closed by morning...and rightfully so...this has been a train wreck.
Anyway...the similarites are many, they are creepy, and let's hope nothing ever comes of it. So lets all just make sure we learn from Hitler/the Inquisition/Salem Witch Trials/Emperor Palpaine/Roman Empire/British Empire/etc and make sure we watch our leaders carefully. Lets all do our part ot be informed from MULTIPLE view points and outlooks so these things never happen again...at least...not on such a grand scale because there are still a lot of little dictators that need taking care of. But lets all just be aware that any country can fall under the same creepy rule as Germany or the Empire of Star Wars, so keep your eyes open and keep your ears open so we don't ever get taken advantage of and "applaud" as our rights are taken away....
at least, as little as possible anyway!
cuz you gotta fight...for your right.....to partaaaaayyyyy!
{rolls credits of this after school special to the beats of the Beastie Boys}
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
"Actually, Palpatine was not trying to distract people. He created the war so that he could elminate the threat of the Trade Federation's droid army to his power. Bush was not seeking to eliminate a threat to power. "
Wrong, Palps started the whole Trade Federation involvement to garner simpathy for a rebellion against the Republic. See TPM for the example, its the WHOLE MOVIE!!!
- Read around the board. It is pretty accepted that Palpatine's entire plan was to eliminate every threat to his power. He knew the battle droids were a threat, so he created a war to destroy them. This is played out in Ep III when [SPOILER - highlight to read]: he has the leaders of the separatists killed. He was basically dividing and conquering, the classic strategy. It was his entire plan. The clones are living, and can be influenced by the force, too which, though less strong a point, also is a possibility as to why Palpatine sought to eliminate the droids and replace them with the clones.
Yes, but in our world we have a whole Administration who now has more power, and who runs it? Bush. So it is very similar.
-The whole Administration has enumerated, limited powers. Palpatine has pretty much limitless power. Conceptually it's completely different. It's a whole other league.
i don't think that palpatine was trying to eliminate threats to his power. the whole point of the trade federation invasion of naboo was to create a situation in which the old chancellor (valorum?) would be able to be deposed. as it was naboo, palpatine got a lot of sympathy votes and became chancellor.
with ep2, it basically followed the principle that to quiet dissention at home, create an outside enemy to unite the country/galactic republic. hence why sidious has his apprentice, tyranus, start a war. this gives him the excuse to create (or utilise a pre-existing) army, which then becomes the core of his future military power.
only in ep3 does he 'eliminate every threat to his power' with the slaughtering of the separaterists and dooku.
"The whole Administration has enumerated, limited powers. Palpatine has pretty much limitless power. Conceptually it's completely different. It's a whole other league"
i have to say, this is pretty untrue. the whole bush administration is not elected, but chosen by him. palpatine has to work around a group of elected officials.
and going back to an old topic a few pages back...the us health system is screwed. i have to say the aussie system is the best.
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
I don't know anything about the Australian system so you might be right.... and in reference to the enumerated powers, I was refering to the powers specifically granted Palpatine by the vote in Ep 2, not who he has to work with or into what situation he is placed as far as allies.
I think the entire point of his plans is to eliminate the threats. I'm WAY too tired to try listing writing it out but somebody had a very good analysis of it somewhere pointing out that every action Palpatine takes results in a specific threat being neutralized.
__________________ John 3:16 ^Thanks Ast Rofan^
Last edited by Lazerlike42 on May 9th, 2005 at 09:11 AM
guys guys guys....think we need to chill out a bit....its only a movie. dont get too carried away and start arguing. this thread has been going for ages now.
too true mist...this thread seems to have unlocked everyone's opinions on bush and the war in iraq. let's just say australia is the best and leave it at that.
though, i do remember seeing a table somewhere showing each us state's average iq and who they voted for in the last election. guess who all the smarter states voted for?
Gender: Male Location: Massachusettes, United States
I also remember those statistics and though I don't remember what exactly it was there was something very wrong and misleading about it. They didn't take the survey accurately or they did it in a biased way and left out an important factor or something. It never made any headway onto the mainstream news because it was debunked pretty quickly.
KMC Community Forums
May 9th, 2005 07:42 AM
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John 3:16 ^Thanks Ast Rofan^
