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Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
As in now it has to be explained why yhry do not comment on certain things the should in Ep. IV, I mean, we all know the various theoires as to why they don't and it is not that hard, but I was just saying that putting the droids in the PT DID create problrms, because they seemed to be presented as fresh characters in the OT.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
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Aug 21st, 2001 05:45 PM |
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sand person no. 10
where are the other nine
Gender: Unspecified
Location: West Midlands UK |
i disagree with this fresh characters idea, they are linked to the pt if only in a small way, r2 thinks that he was once the property of ob1, only a small link but still a link, its no wonder that ob1 cant remember him after all the stuff he's been through, i think too much is being read into the part the droids play in both trilogies, they are just part of the cast like Han is, like leia is and like Luke, they play a part and add to the story like all of the other characters, obviously without them as characters the story would lose a lot of its plot but the same can be said for any of the main characters.
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why would birds want to have sex with bees ??? surely the birds would get stung and the bees would get eaten?
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Aug 21st, 2001 08:05 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Their role as observers HAS been stated by GL.
And it was clearly presented in the OT that none of these people had ever seen the droids before; I always had the idea that Leia had told R2 'You are Obi-Wan's now; go find him'.
You can twist things to make it fit the PT, but that's not really the point.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 21st, 2001 08:39 PM |
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Ratcat
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
I think this all lays good ground for the arguement for watching the series 4-6, 1-3.
Also, I think that the droids will definately become more apparent as II & III are released.
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Aug 21st, 2001 08:57 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
That is true of course.
However... (there's always an "however"  )... Ush is absolutely right that now we need extra story elements in the films just to solve the continuity problems. And since they are, nevertheless, minor characters (though maybe not as minor as Fett, but there's no change in their characters which makes them fairly shallow, which is fine for the purpose they serve), it 's a bit lame to use precious storytime on details. We'll have to see how GL solves it of course, but I fear it may not always serve the story telling process.
That being said, if R2 and 3PO are fun in the next two and not as lame as in TPM, they're very welcome to be on board. But I do stick to my opinion that we didn't NEED them for the PT.
And KJ, if you are saying Vader and Anakin are two different characters then you are wrong. For two reasons. 1. Who's the guy who dies at the end of ROTJ in the black suit: Vader or Anakin? Or both?
2. GL has said SW is the story of Anakin. How can that be if they are "totally different" characters. They are one and the same, that's what the entire saga is about!
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Aug 22nd, 2001 08:08 AM |
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KJ
Sausages
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
 Queeg they are different characters in the context that you said.
You said that Anakin survives all six films storywise and therefore gives continuity. He doesn't. In the PT we follow Anakin Skywaker, hero, great Jedi, chosen one, lover of Amidala, good guy(who goes bad).
In the O.T we see Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, kills people for the sake of it, big scary dude in black, major villain.
It's still Anakin Skywalker but completley different from the one in the PT. Therefore he doesn't give the film continuity because it's like a different character. When you see Anakin in the PT you are meant to associate with him because he's the good guy. When you see him in the OT you are meant to be scared of him.
So the audiance can't use him to link the two trilogies together because after EP3 the hero is gone and replaced by Vader. We no longer follow Anakins journey. We get a new hero to follow - Luke. Only at the end of ROTJ do we get Anakin back.
R2 and 3PO are the only characters who are in all six films, around for all the important events and stay pretty much the same.
Ush, I never said R2 and 3PO were observers in TPM. But they were still around for the most important events which I think will lead to them getting there old role in Ep2 and 3.
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Aug 22nd, 2001 05:37 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Well, maybe. But I get the feeling GL is going with a different direction on this one. It's a fundamentally more complex tale which defreats a standard narrative struture like they used to have. I think. Maybe it really will have changed in Ep. II, which will make TPM very much the odd one out of the films, a true prequel indeed.
BTW, I rather think Obi-Wan is the main continuity character, if you are discounting Anakin...
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 22nd, 2001 05:58 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
I don't get where you get this view on Anakin, KJ. You are so coming from an OT popint of view. Here's the deal:
1. Young kid Anakin, promising Jedi, grave danger in training
2. Young adult Jedi Anakin, powerful Jedi with some dark tendencies
3. Adult Jedi Anakin, turns bad, gets hurt, in dark outfit.
4. Older Anakin/Vader in dark suit doomed forever, new hero rises in his son Luke
5. Anakin/Vader finally meets son, reveals his identity
6. Adult Anakin/Vader turns back to the light side due to his son, dies.
THAT, my dear KJ, is the story of SW in six episodes. Nothing more, nothing less. Lucas said so, this is it: ANakin's story and a crucial part of Anakin's story is that he turns to evil. I doubt we will see an abrupt change between Episode 3 and 4. It will be quite natural. I'm certain that we'll see Anakin don his black suit in Ep3. Why else the breathing at the end of the credits of TPm. Everything builds towards Anakin turning into Vader, that's what this ENTIRE story is about.
And the part of the droids changes withing this story. That just strikes me as odd and unnecessary..... so far.
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Aug 22nd, 2001 06:08 PM |
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sand person no. 10
where are the other nine
Gender: Unspecified
Location: West Midlands UK |
what breathing?
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why would birds want to have sex with bees ??? surely the birds would get stung and the bees would get eaten?
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Aug 22nd, 2001 06:16 PM |
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jedi212guy
Sith Warrior
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Danville, Kentucky |
In Nute Gunray voice, "I was not aware of any breathing." 
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Aug 22nd, 2001 07:46 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
in the same voice:
But we must move quickly to disrupt all breathing down there
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Aug 22nd, 2001 07:52 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
At the end of the TPM credits you can hear Vader breathing.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 22nd, 2001 11:31 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
That's why I always tell people to watch ALL the credits. You never know if there's an Easter Egg there.
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Aug 23rd, 2001 12:02 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Are there any other easter eggs in any movie with the credits?
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Aug 23rd, 2001 02:22 PM |
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KJ
Sausages
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
Queeg, do you think I don't know the SW story? I'm not thick. I know what you said in your post is right but that's not what we are talking about here.
You said that Anakin can be used as a character for the audience to follow and see the story from his standpoint. We can't. Because his veiwpoint changes from the PT to the OT.
It's the same character but he changes so much that it's immpossible for him to have the same role in both trilogies.
In the PT he is our hero. In the OT the villain.
That's what I love about the prequels. We are going to follow Anakin's journey. Cheer him on when he's in battle and all of that.
But you don't do that with Vader in the OT. Instead, you cheer Luke on so that he can turn Anakin back.
To the audience Anakin represents the good guy in the PT.
But he represents the bad guy in the OT (until the end).
So you can't have him taking you through the story because he's completly different in both trilogies.
Vader in ANH isn't the cute, smart kid from TPM. And if you are trying to say otherwise then you should watch the films again.
In the PT we see things from Anakins perspective (or we're going to).
In the OT we see it from Lukes.
R2 and 3PO are the only ones who don't change and are there to take us through the story.
Does anyone else agree?
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Aug 23rd, 2001 06:52 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Well, I'll reserve judgment until I se their roles in the next film. I still think Obi-Wan does the job fine.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 23rd, 2001 07:00 PM |
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KJ
Sausages
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
If the prequels were never made then you're right. Obi-Wan fills in the gaps for Luke and the audience about what happened to Anakin.
But after the PT is made we will know that so Obi-Wan isn't really talking to us anymore He's just there to explain it to Luke.
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Aug 23rd, 2001 07:04 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
I think you are forgetting that our perception of Vader in the OT will change with the PT. THere he was just the villain and Luke the main character. Now with the PT, the perception of Vader is much different. It will not only be "What happens to Luke?" but also or even moreso "What will happen to Anakin? Will he ever turn good again?".
And I also disagree with Anakin being the hero of the PT. He's gonna be an ambiguous character, much different from Luke who's basically good. Anakin goes out to slaughter Tuskens out of revenge for him mom ( the reshoot in England seems to comfirm this scene is DEFINATELY in). We see him defying the Council. And in Ep3 we will see him turn and he'll be evil for at least half the movie. So in ANH his story continues.... In the end, Luke will be the only true and good hero, but it will be Anakin's story. Him wearing another suit does not change that SW is Anakin's story and not Luke's. THat is what has changed now GL made the PT's.
And the droids change too. THey have all these experiences, yet at the beginning of ANH they know nothing of what happened before and they're plain old droids again with a very different part in the story.
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Aug 23rd, 2001 08:04 PM |
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KJ
Sausages
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
I know it's Anakins story, but we don't see it from his veiwpoint. Not after Ep3 anyway. Then we see it from Lukes point of veiw.
So the way we see Anakin is different. He is no longer the main character for us to follow - Luke is.
The droids are the two innocents caught up in everything. Watching, without having any real control over the events that take place. Just like the audience.
Jar Jar took that role in TPM and I hope the droids get it in Ep2 and 3.
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Aug 23rd, 2001 08:34 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
We lose the POV of Anakin, because he's considered "lost". But it's still his story. After Ep3, we will forever look upon Vader with different eyes. It will no longer be "just" Luke's story. So for continuation, Vader and Anakin will be seen by all of us as one and the same.
And your description of R2 and 3PO there sort of proves that these droids had a very forced role in Ep1. If GL does change back to their observer role in Ep 2, than that also proves the droids' role in Ep1 was redundant.
You see, the thing is with the peasants of The Hidden Fortress and the droids in the OT, they are the lowest of the low. The story is told from their PERSPECTIVE, not from their background. Kurosawa and Lucas did this to create some way of identification with a story that factually is quite far away from us. None of lives in outer space a long time ago, no one lives in feodal Japan as nobility. But simple characters have always been there. Yet, these characters are minor. And most of all, we don't need to know where they came from, what their past is. All that is redundant info, since it is not their story. They serve only a purpose, they are not a goal by themselves.
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Aug 24th, 2001 07:28 AM |
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