 |
Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Sigh... it's really not that difficult, queeq. THERE Vader was speaking literally. In the trench, he wasn't. You have to get into the idea of how he was feeling at the time.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
Sep 28th, 2001 05:07 PM |
|
|
| |
|
sand person no. 10
where are the other nine
Gender: Unspecified
Location: West Midlands UK |
I thought that in the trench vader was being quite reflective on Lukes ability, certainly the tone of his voice suggests that he was impressed, after all had ob1 not just told luke to feel the force and not think, therefore if Luke was experimenting with the force for one of the first times would vader have not been able to feel this, the force does afterall surround everything and so i'm sure someone using the force would be found out by a master of vaders level.
secondly, i've just though about this ghost thing, ob1, vader and yoda all knew they were going to die at that exact moment and so perhaps ghosts are only created when jedi gove themselves
__________________
why would birds want to have sex with bees ??? surely the birds would get stung and the bees would get eaten?
|
|
Sep 28th, 2001 10:11 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
No, I think his toneof voice would have been VERY different if he had thought he had found a Force user.
Meanwhile, Qui-Gon also knew he was dying and didn't disappear, and also if it was that 'simple' it would be something thatr more Jedi did. Remember, Vader did not know about it so it is not a normal occurence; it is entirely possible that the three people in the OT that did it are the only people who ever did and ever will.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 28th, 2001 10:26 PM |
|
|
| |
|
sand person no. 10
where are the other nine
Gender: Unspecified
Location: West Midlands UK |
how can you say qgj knew he was going to die, for someone who knew he was going to die he went after maul very viciously, and the look of shock on his face when the lightsabre went through his stomach did not look to me as though he expected tp die. Also he had just promised to train the chosen one and i would have thought that was reason enough to keep on living.
Just because we only see three ghosts does not mean that other jedi haven't done it, it might just mean that the ghosts only appear to people who are important, all 3 of the ghosts who Luke saw were very important in his training, therefore i think it is only the jedi who have had an impact upon you're training that you can see, hence why ob1 sees no one and qui gon had no reason to see any of his past jedi mates because his training was finished and he was decisive in his actions. It is also possible that the jedi who trained qgj were still alive, there would be little point in throwing jedi ghosts into films for the fun of it, hence the ghosts only being seen by the important people. I'm sure Yoda and mace windu see ghosts. but only they can see them because they are important to them only. I suspect we will see qgj appear to both anakin and ob1 at the same time, just to prove my point.
And vader could feel the force in luke because i think that line comes after ob1 says let go of your feelings hence the force would have been being used by Luke at that time and Vader would have felt it, perhaps that was why Vader couldn't shoot Lukes ship down, Vader was so shocked at encountering someone strong in the force that he did not know how to deal with them and Luke by using the force was able to evade Vaders shots.
__________________
why would birds want to have sex with bees ??? surely the birds would get stung and the bees would get eaten?
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 12:37 AM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
But Maul's strpokew did not kill QGJ immedaitely. He had plenty of time to pull the 'trick' if need be. Besides, if it was as simple aa rhat then when asked why QGJ didn;t disappear, GL would not have said 'there is a mystery around the disappearing trick that will be explained; this is very important,' he would have just said 'Qui-Gon was surprised'. I think there is little chance of that idea being right.
Secondly, no, NO other Jedi have done it. If they had, then Vader would have known of the concept, but he does NOT. And he CERTAINLY cannot appear beofre Anakin- that would totally contradict this vital point!
The whole point is that what Obi-Wan does is new, hence the line 'Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. It is not a common Jedi thing, and therefore QGJ will not do it. He didn't disappear, anyway, so he can't. And what with Liam Neeson having said he isn't in it...
Luke's Jedi-based instincts and reflexes, and talent, enabled him to fend off Vader for so long but there is no indication whatsoever that Vader was sensing any force use, if any.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Sep 29th, 2001 at 04:06 AM
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 04:01 AM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
If Vader knew Luke was force-sensetive he certainly shot him down because a possible Jedi was with the rebels
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 11:05 AM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Vader would have FLIPPED if he thought he had found a potential Jedi, not just made a passing comment. It is one of the ain reasons I maintain that he wwas merely talking about the tricky target.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 12:15 PM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Why flipped? If you look at the EU, you see that there are a lot of Force-sensitivs aroud, Vader would have flipped every 5 sec.
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 01:19 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Knackers to the EU. As presented in the films the whole use of the Force thing is utterly dead. Vader's conversation with Tarkin makes this clear.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 02:56 PM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
So? Obi is alive and there is a guy than can use the force but doesn't have a training. He knows about OB1; and people not using the force isn't the same as hating the force or something like that. I mean there are still force-sensitive people there
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 03:30 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Vader had killed Obi-Wan earlier that day; he thought that was the end of it. The Force was dead; people didn't even believe in it any more.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 29th, 2001 10:48 PM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Yes, people don't belive in the Force (see Han Solo and his hockey religion-line)
But not believing the Force and being Force-sensitive is something different; the one doesn't rules out the other
|
|
Sep 30th, 2001 09:11 AM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
It's cause and effect, isn't it? People don't believe in the Force because no-one is using it any more. Without training your Force sensitivity probably counts for very little- unless you are a stonkingly powerful Chosen One or Son of Chosen One, of course.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 30th, 2001 09:26 AM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
I thought that because no-one believed in the Force anymore no-one did it.
Like the Clone Wars was the last stepping stone for the emperor, so everyone hates the Jedi
|
|
Sep 30th, 2001 09:57 AM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
It'll be interesting to see whether people actually end up hating the Jedi or whether they simply forget about them.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
|
|
Sep 30th, 2001 10:12 AM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
My guess is that the Jedi did something wrong, so nobody believed in them anymore and didn't support them.
It would be 'great' to see Jedi get killed and the people being happy about it
|
|
Sep 30th, 2001 10:17 AM |
|
|
| |
|
queeq
Chaos
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
I don't think ghosts appear only if they have been of great importance to your training. After all, Yoda could converse with OB1.... and at the end of ROTJ all the ghosts were together.
A good thing you brought up the convo with Tarkin, Ush, because that contains another clue. I still don't get who you are to judge that one "the Force is strong with..." has a different meaning. Why does it really mean waht it means when Palpy says it and that it is "just an expression" when Vader says it. Even though he takes the Force VERY seriously as we know from the "technological terror" convo earlier on in ANH.
But I digress, the Tarking convo.... You always said Jedi can ONLY sense minds and not if someone is strong with the Force. Here's the convo with Tarkin:
VADER: He is here...
TARKIN: Obi-Wan Kenobi! What makes you think so?
VADER: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
TARKIN: Surely he must be dead by now.
VADER: Don’t underestimate the power of the Force.
Two clues:
1. Vader takes the Force VERY seriously, not a person to use a Force line casually.
2. MOST IMPORTANT: Vader does NOT sense a mind, he SENSES a TREMOR IN THE FORCE (which is the same as a presence he had not felt since...) So it seems the presence Vader senses is caused by something he feels in the Force around his old master, NOT his mind.
__________________
|
|
Oct 1st, 2001 09:35 AM |
|
|
| |
|
yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Djee, and I thought I was obsessed
|
|
Oct 1st, 2001 10:20 AM |
|
|
| |
|
queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
"There's always a bigger fish." 
__________________
|
|
Oct 1st, 2001 11:59 AM |
|
|
| |
|
Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
Blimey, queeq, you have taken this in a very weird direction, and I am finding it very hard to wrap my head around your way of thought.
The meaning of what you say is very often changed by the context in which you say it. It's a basic rule of language.
This really is very simple, and it has nothing to do whatsoever with how 'seriously' Vader takes the Force; that's a complete red herring.
Galaxy-wide, people often use the Force instead of luck. Not much of a surprise, really, when things seem to go right for Jedi all the time. But it's not luck for a Jedi, it's the Force. So if a person is dispalying great luck and you want to use this reference, you wouldn't say 'He has the luck of a Jedi', because that would make no sense. You would say 'The Force is strong with him'. It is by this token that Dodonna, and others, say 'May the Force be With You' when you or I would say 'Good Luck'.
I would say this is doubly true of any Jedi who does not believe in luck and believes in the supremacy of the Force.
But when you are ACTUALLY talking about how powerful a Jedi is, when you say the Force is strong with him you obviously mean it literally!
I knew you would accuse me of changing the meaning of what was said to suit me. But that's not it, that's not it at all. It's a simple application of what people can mean when they say the Force is strong in someone. That could be gooid luck, great skill, or actual Force power in the person they are talking about. It depends on the situation!
Likewise, when Vader says the Force is with Obi-Wan to Tarkin he means it literally. I was at no point saying it was a difference between Vader and Palpy
And a tremor in the Force could mean anything, queeq. That could be the sort of thing you feel when you sense a mind, especially one as distinctive as Obi-Wan's.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Oct 1st, 2001 at 05:48 PM
|
|
Oct 1st, 2001 05:21 PM |
|
|
| |
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
Text-only version |
|
|
KMC Community Forums
