Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Each main character and their emotional battle (long read lol)
IMO as I have said many times lol (sorry if its annoying y'all) is that we set off in this movie with each character facing some sort of emotional battle between two questions raised. To start with the most important one appears to be the one they set off following..but a battle is raging, be it obvious or not and its between something they are familiar and comfortable with and something they are terrified to accept or even think of.
IMO the true quest each character takes is an emotional one rather than a physical one. Although overcoming the fear to face physical barriers in this movie seem to be the very things that allow the character's to overcome those emotional fears I noticed. Especially with Jack, Liz and the Kraken..Jack is actually ahead of everyone in this movie when it comes to facing up to what they fear the most in order to gain the reward. He actually does it before the movie ends. He faced up to the fear of making an obligation to Elizabeth.
Jack and Elizabeth are actually very similar in terms of their emotional battles because it involves being with each other or sticking with their familiar "safe" way of life. Fear of the unknown appears to be showing with both of them in this movie. Although Jack moves past that a LOT sooner than Elizabeth does...Jack seems to have had this emotional battle happening for a long time but with Elizabeth it pretty much only starts with this movie...which IMO explains why all of a sudden the actual possibility of being with Jack on a long term basis scares the living daylights out of her.
Will is very hard to understand because he is one of those characters who is so set on what they are trying to achieve they are terrified to let their deepest desires take over...but there is something we know about him. He knows his father is alive somewhere but he has also learned that he is a pirate, IMO he's pushing down his childhood dream of finding him just so he can prove himself to Elizabeth and her father that he is very worthy of her. He has a fear of making an obligation to something unfamiliar just like Jack and Elizabeth do
anyway back to Jack. Jack is vexed by Elizabeth:
Jack wants to have her in his life one moment but not the next? He's running away from her..Its the argument of basically I want Elizabeth, No I only want to care for myself, I want elizabeth, no I only want to care for myself, I want elizabeth etc etc
Being with Elizabeth is the one thing that counters what he's most comfortable and familiar with the very most ....its going to be a BIG challenge/journey for him to overcome that fear he is terrified of making her an obligation/partner in his life...and this is his true quest in the story IMO
Now it comes to Elizabeth and the compass. Basically Elizabeth is slowly becoming vexed over a man. Jack sparrow:
Ok so with Elizabeth the compass is pretty much doing the same thing as it did for Jack. Its pointing to Jack as a man but its also pointing to the means to save Will(feelings for Will)..Its shifting between what she feels most comfortable with and what she feels most uncomfortable with (feelings for Jack)
Its clear that she shows a great fear/anger/denial when ever her feelings for Jack get called into question
With her its "I want Jack..no I don't I'm a bad person I want Will..Oh I want jack? No I don't I'm scared!"
what Ted says about being "hungry" in both paragraphs suggests that the compass isn't pointing to Jack because she only wants sex from him...there is something deeper going on with her and this is what scares her the very most..she's not used to it IMO. She very much wants to feel safe with William through out much of this movie..the girl is STUCK on this horrible ever growing fear of making Jack an obligation in her life and whats makes her emotional battle 10 times harder is the fact she has Jack WITH her throughout much of the movie. So the ending? IMO is pretty self explanatory
Jack has basically raised the point that he can be everything she needs in life but she's still no where emotionally NEAR facing up to that thought.
What I also find interesting is the fact the compass was telling her she wanted to save Will the most in this world but what she wants most in this world is Jack..IMO what she did to him showed that .and its why it hit her after meeting the mentor:
Tia. The mentor of the story. According to Naomi Harris. She has the ability to see what each character wants most in this world(which is what they fear most) and by the time each character meets her..she secretly helps them embrace that instead of what they originally went to see her for or in Elizabeth's case went to see her with..and the true quest for each character is made clear in my opinion:
Jack went there asking for help with what he is most familiar: himself as an obligation. She does nothing to help in that respect..although she pretends to. She actually leads him to the very thing he's fearing (which she basically says out loud BTW)
Will went there (along with Jack) wanting help with what he is most familiar with: saving Elizabeth. She did nothing to help in that respect..although she pretends to. Instead she leads will to the very thing he's fearing facing up to: His pirate of a father.
With Elizabeth Its different. She has Will with her when she meets Tia. So tia actually gives her the chance to make some emotional conclusions on the spot. She offers drinks out as is its a wake for Jack. As if everyone is going to move on in life and stick with how things now are..and Elizabeth refuses to drink two times when ever someone says "to ease the pain of losing JAck"..or to toast and move on in life...its clear as day that she is not happy with the way things are..she's now come to embrace the feelings she has for Jack...and before it ends. She's ready to make him an obligation in her life.
I must warn though. Now days we are taught to each out for the super natural mentor. With modern story telling. They usually have a twist up their sleeve..
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:16 PM
Gender: Female Location: In the caribbean with johnny duh
OMG lovelyone how do you come up with these conclusions its amazing how explainitory you truly are , I read and totally understood all that you wrote in most cases i would be like WHAT THE HECK lol but i really appreciate these post of your i guess its helps me get by until the movies comes out because I'm basically ripping my hair out in frustration.
Okay, so you know who Tia reminds me of? Batman's original mentor dude in the new batman movie... he is smart and awesome and he trains batman well, but in the end, he ends up being a villian of sorts.
from the leaked script which may be wrong, Tia states that Jack has a debt to Tia.... which is probably either stabbing the heart of Jones, or setting her free from her human form (which the pirate brethran trapped her in years ago) thereby unleashing her full power.
i do think this is likely to happen in 3.
great sum up with the writer quotes. i was reading his blog yesterday and found outrageous amounts of info on how they go about writing their scripts...
and there was lots of interesting junk. they mentioned that endings have to be inevitable, and yet unexpected. they have to fulfill the promises they made to the audience, and yet be surprising.
Elizabeth is the one who actually functions on "primal" instinct most often. Jack is incredibly smart and always has a plan, while Will is incredibly driven and follows lots of rules.
so part of the film is going to be making each character vulnerable, as we saw in 2... Jack without his hat, Liz without a dress, and Will without Liz. Jack having to be noble, Liz having to restrain her desires, Will having to play the pirate.
in 3, Will is (apparantly) going to get a lot more primal. Liz is getting smarter... she suddenly seems to start grasping the depth of what is going on, and she's going to be watching for which way the cat jumps, so she can jump with it and end up on the right side of things.
I dont know about Jack... i think what ought to be an issue for him is TRUST... because so many people have betrayed him. Barbossa, Will, Liz, and I have a feeling Tia will betray him on some level as well.
What i would LIKE to see happen is something following the ending of Disney's Hercules (which is an incredibly movie, btw, even though it butchers the myth lol) where Jack feels he has been betrayed by Liz (or vice versa) but she steps up to redeem herself by proving her love in a big way, leaving him room to do the same.
I sometimes get afraid that Jack's method of proving his admiration/love/apology to Elizabeth will be helping her win Will back. that would be incredibly hard, but i could see it happening. It would take Jack's character to the arc of realizing his love for her, realizing he wants her to be happy, and doing something he has never done before--- giving her up. but thats all RUBBISH and if they are PLANNING that then its CRAP and they should quickly REWRITE@!!@@@
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Yes katelovespirate I agree with you...I find this interesting what Ted said here:
In a sequel where the audience knows the characters, how do you both keep the characters the same so the audience doesn't feel cheated, yet have the characters go through significant changes so the audience feels satisfied?
Elliott: You take risks. The characters that were created in Pirates were fairly complex characters. I think that's part of its success. Particularly with Jack, but with all of them, people really responded to them. I remember there were early comparisons to Star Wars, and I kept saying, "You know, I don't remember that part in Star Wars where Luke hits Han over the head with an oar and leaves him to the stormtroopers." There was a little bit more to these characters. Elizabeth does some pretty ruthless things in order to save Will. And it was sort of just expanding on that.
But it was also taking a risk of taking the characters to a place where the audience is a little bit uncomfortable. You want the audience to respond, to be wondering. "Did that character do the right thing? Did that character do the wrong thing?" In approaching it that way, in saying, "Everything they do will be within the realm of the character that the audience knows, but we're going to create a plot that makes these characters do things that are unexpected or that people may not ever expect to see -- at least not in a Hollywood summer franchise blockbuster tent-pole movie." That's how you do it.
I kinda take that to mean that each character is starting to take on something that was always there yet they refused it or pressed it so deeply into their subconcious that they dont even realize its there which IMO is what happened with Liz and her feelings fo Jack etc.
also Will stabbing lizzie..on the cards by me reading that.
Jack with Liz..meaning they did that because it was always a possibility anyway..
I agree with you on that ending too because IMO Elizabeth is not Will's girl anymore..right now she's emotionally tied to Jack, it will be her quest..she has accepted the first threshold..
and IMO it would suck if Jack did that because the one thing I never see him do is have love for someone..He quote often does the right thing for prople so that they can be happy (mainly Liz) IMO I would love to see him just gain a reward for doing it..which IMO he already has step 9 tee hee!
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 27th, 2006 at 09:19 PM
dont think Will will ever consciously betray Elizabeth. He would betray every one else, even himself, first.
i dont think, up to this point, Elizabeth has had a serious emotional tie to anyone. She is actually a very isolated character. She is looking to form meaningful relationships, but her biggest problem is the fact that she isnt very mature emotionally--- she never really knows what she wants. SHe is very smart, very manipulative, very impulsive and takes charge easily. She can battle with the best of them, hold her own against Barbossa and Jack. But in some ways she is still very naive, very girlish-- and that is in her ideals. SHe hasnt allowed them to mature along with her growing piracy and her changing sense of values. she needs to let those old ideals go and embrace the new wants and desires she is experiencing.
by three, she seems very wise, and almost cynical at times. she has had to let the ideal of a perfect relationship with WIll go, because she has realized they ARENT as perfect for each other as she thought. In a lot of ways, she doesnt feel she deserves him. And for him, he realizes how complex Elizabeth is, perhaps out of the realm of his thinking.
I hope Elizabeth can accept the challenge of discovering new ideals and new relationships and return to the spunky person she is meant to be.
she seemed awfully negative for most of 2... hardly ever smiled or laughed... and i hope despite her gained wisdom and inner struggle she can have some fun in 3.
it just doesnt seem fair that Jack is always the character having the most fun...
Liz with Will: Right at the beginning of 1 when she comes down the stairs, once when saying "i dont know" when they are having their talk below decks in 1, once when WIll shows up after the ship blows up, once while they are fighting the pirates in the cave at the end of 1, once at the end of 1 when they are about to kiss. In the second movie, she smiles at him when she is in jail, and when he shows up on the island where they find the heart. thats it.
Liz with Jack: they have the most lovely smiley/laughy/drunk/SINGING scene where they are laughing and having the most fun of anyone in the film in 1. she smiles at him during the peas in a pod scene, while watching him fight barbossa, and at the end when he says his "darling" line to her. In two, she smiles when they meet up in tortuga (for like the whole scene) and LAUGHS. She smiles during the persuade me scene and while thinking about him afterwards. she smiles a ton during the curiosity scene and laughs. she smiles when Jack comes back and picks up the gun. SHe smiles when thanking him before kissing him.
Ya know Jack's line after he has whacked Will with the oar "leave him lie, unless you plan on using him to hit something with"...
perhaps that is foreshadowing what Jack's advice will be to Lizzie in 3. Like, let him go Lizzie, because he's no good to you/isnt right for you. I"M the one with the sword in my hand.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
she does now have a tie to Jack..when she agreed to get him back that is accepting the first threshold meaning they have made an emotional tie to the quest..all she had on her mind before the end was "Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack..the kiss, the kiss, the kiss, he;s actually gone, I want him back he came back for me and i murdered him" ..the tears and such thats not just guilt for murdering a man..its guilt because she murdered a man she realizes changed to suit what she wanted of him because he wants to have her in his life THAT MUCH and she rejected him because of that very fear. Its no where NEAR love yet I agree..but she has at least accepted her feelings for Jack hence the tears..before she was trying not to show him any emotion when leaving him (although it was clearly there)
Its clear that its Jack on her mind because the compass was pointing to him as a man that she wanted most in this world but at the same time she wanted to save Will most in this world and in that situation at the end what does she do? she saved Will..which makes sense with what the compass was telling her. Its only after she has Will safe with her the friggin void comes and hits her like a ton of bricks because the man she wanted most in this world is now dead because of her...She didnt want Will most in this world she just wanted to save him most in this world, now that she has him I think she actuall accepts how much Jack actually meant to her..at the help of Tia of course. and then she agrees to make a tie to him and get him back in her life
Its just like Jack..he didn't want Liz in his life at all but he accepted th first threshold as soon as he saw her..he lets her come with him and IMO its not just to do with the chest..remember the hat scene where he's trying them all on feeling emotionally lost and then she appears wearing the hat.he totally feels at ease/complete around her..he made an emotional tie to the quest which is Elizabeth the one thing he was running away from
Tia sort of helps to prompt them along.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 11:46 AM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
think about it. Its in her character to want to save Will all th time and she usually doesnt care about who she hurts in the process..and as Ted says she does some pretty ruthless things to save him..so why on earth has she decided to go and get Jack? Its going put her and Will in danger..
Liz has made a siginificant change before the movie ends towards Jack. He now means enough to her to risk her's and Will's saftey to get him back and the fact she was in tears backs all of this up Jack now means something more to her, she is emotionally tied to him...going after Jack is something she never woud have done before hand until accepting she has feelings for him in Tia's hut..she's crossed the first threshold and embraced the very thing she feared.."making an emotional obligation to anyone else accept Will."
Its the whole point of my thread..each character has a battle going on between sonmething familar and something they are afraid of and by the time the movie ends they have ALL stepped over the first threshold and decided to embrace the thing they feared and in Liz's case it was making Jack an obligation in her life despite putting Will in danger.
Jack even has the reward he jus needs to return home with it..and the reward is Elizabeth lol.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 12:05 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
and the fact Liz has now accepted her feelings for him (first threshold) ties in with the fact that the reward Jack gained is now his..Liz jst needs to get to the point he's at..IMO she's going to save him from Beckett and the EITC and even Will it seems
the story for any character doesnt really start until they are called to action by someone and refuses them and Elizabeth has only just started before the movie closes..so finding and being with Will, acting on selfish impulse.. Is All the fake mission..all of means pretty much nothing at all until she meets the mentor and embraces the real mission/quest..It's Jack and embracing what she once feared (being with him)
They cant have all 3 characters moviing at the same pace otherwise we would get really confused and it would be hard to show you each character's supreme ordeal at the same time.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I agree Liz is steadily maturing. I don't think she will abandon her ideals, though. In Jack, she sees the way to balance being a pirate and being a good person and she wants to have that kind of balance in her life. I wouldn't say, though, that's she accepted how she feels about him. We won't know that until we see them together again and how they act around each other. Liz might have agreed to go get him and put herself and Will in danger, but she can always convince herself going and saving him is simply the right thing to do. She's still a pretty moral girl and she tends to rationalize when she does something questionable. It won't be until she is point-blank with Jack again that she'll embrace how she feels (and embrace him) or try to ignore it.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
for liz I hope this is true:
4) THE HERO IS ENCOURAGED BY THE WISE OLD MAN OR WOMAN.
By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like
character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert
Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the
Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. The mentor gives advice and
sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke
Skywalker his father's light sabre.
The mentor can only go so far with the hero. Eventually the hero
must face the unknown by himself/herself. Sometimes the wise old man is
required to give the hero/heroine a swift kick in the pants to get the
adventure going.(Jar of Dirt for Jack lol)
"5) THE HERO/Heroine PASSES THE FIRST THRESHOLD.
He/she fully enters the special world of his/her story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins (where as before she was fearing the special world which was feelings for Jack, hence the fact she refused the call to adventure with Jack), the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero/heroine is now committed to his/her
journey... and there's no turning back."
I noticed with this story the mentor comes back around the end of stage 6..and it was the Jar of Dirt for Jack and it was helping Will get the pearl when he was there.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 10:00 PM
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.and its why it hit her after meeting the mentor:
Sep 27th, 2006 06:02 PM
