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Understanding Jack/Liz on screen
Started by: LovelyOne

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LovelyOne
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Understanding Jack/Liz on screen

I know lots of people don't really understand what Jack/Liz is all about..what each character really feels for the other etc...whats REALLY going on in DMC..and even PotC 1 savvy? What is Jack really feeling?? how does he really feel when he's around her?

Lots of W/E shippers will say "you cant trust Jack!, he's a thieving dishonest pirate..not good for Elizabeth at all!" etc etc

I would totally disagree there.

I think one of the biggest clues may come from something Ted or Terry said about the character of Jack..I cant find the source..may need a little help from a fellow KMCer..its kinda obvious though when you think about it

Remember they are both really similar in behaviour etc. "peas in a pod" - Jack movie 1.

Ted and or Terry said the more words Jack uses the more you shouldn't trust him..he's trying to cover his true emotions/intentions up. He's being dishonest and often has bad intentions at heart..all he cares about is personal gain etc etc.

So Jack is actually being more honest when he speaks less to someone or is completely silent.

I think Elizabeth is the same.

So when you put that over pretty much all of the scenes we have ever seen with Jack/Liz I think we get a pretty good idea of what each character is really feeling in the situation.

Jack is often very silent around Elizabeth or he uses very few words when talking to her..he's being HONEST with his emotions..his guard is DOWN

Elizabeth on the other hand??

Think about it lol..her guard is up she's trying to hide how she really feels towards him

She is the one who is all words in situations where she's trying to get something from him or is trying to cover up why she is really doing what she's doing

again look at the Curiosity scene and the end scene...she's LYING everything she is blabbing on about is a lie she's being dishonest about what she's really doing and what she really wants..so the whole thing about him respecting her honor and pullig away? is BS..she wants a kiss and she's talking and talking right up until the moment he almost kisses her...then hello we see dissapointment on her face when he pulls away..again the lie "I'm proud of you Jack"..Jack is SILENT in that scene etc etc

In other words she's trying to hide her true feelings for Jack.

again look at when she's silent around him and he's silent around her at the same time..OR when they are both blabbing on to each other at the same time laughing out loud

It all boils down to their true emotions you can see it when they lie to eachother and when they are honest to eachother..Its all very simple and telling when you think about it that way.

Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 11th, 2006 at 03:26 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:12 PM
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katelovespirate
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yeah totally.

we've already been over the fact that Jack is most vulnerable around Elizabeth... with the rum scene, with her being able to trick him 2... it happens this way because Jack lets his guard down around her... either he DOES trust her, or he underestimates her... and i think it is a combination of this, as well as a subconcious desire to be bested by Elizabeth. does that make sense?

i am quite curious right now to know how much of the flirtation and chemistry was an actual part of the script (and therefore essential to the storyline) and how much was actor chemistry and improvisation. I've always wondered if the writers/director meant for there to be such amazing chemistry between Jack and Elizabeth... and if perhaps a lot of our theories arent based on the real storyline. ya know?

Elizabeth tends to be very aggressive in her relationships. its pretty amazing to see how her progression with Will in 1 mirrors her progression with Jack in 2.

Like when Liz and Will are below decks in 1, and Will is wrapping her hand, and as they discuss, she makes some very obvious physical "moves" on Will... and suggestions. However, she runs off before anything happens.

This is very similar to the curiosity scene in 2, (except that Liz and Jacks conversation is much more fun and deep) where Liz makes some obvious moves towards Jack, almost daring him to kiss her, and when he pulls back she runs off.

Elizabeth is like Jack in that you cant take her words too seriously... its the body language, the connotation of what she's saying that's important.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:24 PM
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katelovespirate
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here are some interesting comments from different people on wordplayer:

Elisabeth might not need the Black Pearl in AWE. There might be more ships in the sea, so to speak.I think Elisabeth actions are age appropriate. Experiencing angst while discovering who you truly are, and what you really want is not that *Unusual* for a early twenty something, though the life choices she encounters certainly are.Intellectually she is the equal of anyone, regardless of age, emotionally she's still cookie dough.Her one true love is supposed to be Will, but there is no denying Jack has rocked her boat. Now Jack is older but age does not guarantee immunity from angst either, especially in the affairs of the heart, poor Jack is in uncharted waters. I think Liz brought out the good man in Jack,but I'm not 100% convinced "post death" Jack will still be as vexed. A stint in purgatory might change a persons priorities. Jack has lots of time to ponder the price he has paid for the previous life he lived while he contemplates the "sands of time." lol

‘Her one true love is supposed to be Will, but there is no denying Jack has rocked her boat.’
I find it interesting that the first love interest-who is still interested- introduced to Elizabeth in CotBP is Norrington. It is Norrington, and not Will, who has known Elizabeth since childhood. I find it even more intriguing that by DMC Norrington has all the makings of a pirate: he does the right thing under pretence of being a good man in an act of self-immolation in the eyes of Elizabeth-that is running off with the chest into the wilderness.
‘Now Jack is older but age does not guarantee immunity from angst either, especially in the affairs of the heart, poor Jack is in uncharted waters.’
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, Jack is at base three in the pyramid. Physiological needs are covered, safety issues resolved (no more running from the Kraken because at present Jack is as dead as a door nail) which on resurrection brings Jack to stage three: love and belonging needs. Now in CotBP obtaining the Black Pearl was Jack’s main prerogative, in DMC escaping death so in AWE Jack needs a new objective, the character is always a man on a mission. Question is, what is the new mission?
'Intellectually she is the equal of anyone, regardless of age, emotionally she's still cookie dough.'
Agreed, Elizabeth is see-sawing between stage two and three in the pyramid. She no longer has the security of her father and is now in a predicament with Jack, Will and Norrington. She is in possession of the youthful folly of immortality of self, thus Elizabeth’s killer instinct in CotBP when she goes after Barbossa with a bread knife and in DMC when she serves up Jack as a mast kebab, not yet in possession of the realisation of the permanence of death and the permanence of fear of death. This may change in AWE due to the battle wounds of DMC.
Will is somewhere between stage two and four. Will requires the security of a father figure which also crosses over into love and belonging needs which may or may not include Elizabeth in AWE, then there are issues of esteem for the boy who was just never good enough. Will the chip poison the character in AWE or will Will be able to shoulder it?



just thought those two comments were valid. shed some light on liz for me anyways.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:33 PM
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LovelyOne
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yes exactly kate exactly^^ Body Language is key..and the words are empty.

I notice her and Jack speak lots in 2 different types of situations

one when they are trying to cover up feelings for one another

and 2 when they are trying to trick someone

Elizabeth's curiosity moment? She's speaking blah blah trying to trick him into kissing her..then it changes!

she starts blah blah blahing about honor and him not kissing her because she's oh so full of honor etc..trying to cover up what she's doing whilst the body language says the complete opposite

"judge a person by actions not words" big grin

Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 11th, 2006 at 03:36 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:33 PM
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LovelyOne
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LOL kate thanks for that post

funny how they said cookie doe laughing out loud

they obviously watch buffy the vampire slayer

Buffy says she's cookie doe..still not baked.. Angel is suppsed to be her one true love yet Its spike(the bad boy) who rocks her world...in the end?? She chooses Spike. She tells Angel to leave because Spike is now in her life.

Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 11th, 2006 at 03:40 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:36 PM
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shannstar79
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Thanks for that post kate and I love the Cookie Doe part too
They must love Buffy heheh
speaking of buffy
She and Angel never worked out and she feel in love with the bad guy SPike,
the one your soposed to be with never gets away
IMO


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:42 PM
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katelovespirate
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shann, i really love your siggy. thats so moving. seriously.

i love that line. witty Jack and him precious pearl. he's such a legend. its amazing.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:46 PM
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LovelyOne
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I think that moment when they run int eachother in Tortuga is very telling too in terms of the amounts of words they use..and then there's the silent moments between both in that scene too.

at first its blah blah!

then there's that honest moment where he says it points to what you want most in this world *looks down at her lips*..then she obviously picks up on that and its a silent moment for her too and she says "oh JACK!!"

and then what happens??..we see her look uncomfortable..

Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 11th, 2006 at 03:51 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:49 PM
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shannstar79
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by katelovespirate
shann, i really love your siggy. thats so moving. seriously.

i love that line. witty Jack and him precious pearl. he's such a legend. its amazing.

Thanks so much Kate
I cant claim the art work a girl named nan did it, but I loved it too and had to have it!!
big grin


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 03:54 PM
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Minie Mina
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i love cookie dough laughing out loud

backk to subject. What alot of ppl dont see or dont want to see is the true patterns from this movie. There is more depth to this movie that we have to annlyze and think about it.

Actions definitely speaks louder than words.

Now liz with the curiosity scene saying honor and crap, which she should shut the hell up cause she has no honr sorry lol, but if u see her body language its clear that shes horny and wants jack to fall into the temptation so HE will be the one to kiss her not liz. So he will be guilty, and liz can come clean.

but the end of course talking caca caca caca saying that shes not sorry. Look at her face!! it was clear this woman was sorry. Sorry that she decided to have her life wearing corsets and being with a man whom she is NOT IN LOVE with, then by being free with the man WHOM SHES IN LOVE with.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 04:55 PM
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savvysparrow
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Jack's attraction is fairly easy to glean. She offers him the type of challenge that no woman has presented to him before. She resists his advances, thus making her even more irresistible. She's probably one of the few people who are capable of outwitting him and he's admitted that he deeply prizes intelligence. What's sad about the nature of her relationship to him is that she's only able to defeat him because she understands his weaknesses and can subsequently use it against him. The few times that he's made himself vulnerable--in that the facade of the Legend of Captain Jack Sparrow disappears--she's taken the information he's given her and turned it against him. (Burning the rum, chaining him to the mast).

She understands that he wants people to recognize that he's secretly a good man at times, just as much as she wants people to recognize that she's a pirate. Look at the Persuade me conversation, Jack brings up the nature of the way she achieved the letters of marq from Beckett, implying that her actions are very Pirate like. After the conversation is over, she's seen smiling secretly to herself, looking very much as though she's flattered that perhaps Jack has recognized her pirate nature. (More like he hasn't forgotten)
Equally as telling is his reaction to her judgement on whether or not she'll believe him. Every time she mentions that he is a good man, or that she trusts him, he seems to pause, as though waiting with anxious anticipation on whether or not she truly sees beneath the facade.

Last but not least, their attraction to each other is also rooted in the manner in which they're constantly at odds with each other. I don't mean angry, but more along the lines that they're constantly tricking each other, and subsequently attempting to out do one another. There isn't a slight that Elizabeth has offered to Jack that he hasn't repaid in some fashion.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 05:16 PM
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LovelyOne
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LOL..the reason why she smiled is because Jack just suggested sex to her in the persuade me scene.

and what I was trying to say about the ending is she's blabbing on about why she's doing it and its obviously a lie..

I also dont think their relationship is based souly on the fact they out do one another and are at odds. He protects her and makes her feel safe when she needs it the most. That is the most obvious thing to me in their relationship...this is the main reason she chained him to the mast I think. He came back for her and in doing so asked her to be with him. His actions always speak louder than words and I think she knows this.

See her face when he was so silently staring at her when she said "I always knew you were a good man"

Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 11th, 2006 at 05:38 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 05:33 PM
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LovelyOne
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She's not just chaining him up to beat him at a a game or because she has no feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will..its because she DOES have feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will

her true, TRUE feelings for him IMO escalated the moment he came back for her with that godlike shot. It explains everything to me when it comes to her character.

that is one of those silent Jack/Liz moments where both characters' honest emotions are on the surface..no words just actions and body language.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 05:42 PM
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Mistypirate
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LovelyOne
She's not just chaining him up to beat him at a a game or because she has no feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will..its because she DOES have feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will

her true, TRUE feelings for him IMO escalated the moment he came back for her with that godlike shot. It explains everything to me when it comes to her character.

that is one of those silent Jack/Liz moments where both characters' honest emotions are on the surface..no words just actions and body language.


And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 06:22 PM
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shannstar79
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mistypirate
And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.


Good Lord
Ive never thought of that line that way before, Good catch Misty


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 06:40 PM
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PirateDiva
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mistypirate
And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.


I Love it....that was great never thought of that line that way!!


and honestly i never thought about this either....until i read one of the posts....on the crossing from England we see Little Elizabeth and an obviously older NORRINGTON....i dont know but that just makes me feel much better about Liz choosing Jack....i mean she was going to marry Norrington who is much older than she is!! So just eliminates the age barrier for me!!!


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Thanks Savvy! *Huggles*

Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 07:12 PM
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shannstar79
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YEA SHE LIKES OLDER MEN HEHEHEH


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 07:20 PM
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T.Maria
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i like this theory smile

actions ALWAYS speak louder than words, and we all know that subtley is usually what writers try to attempt when they are trying to create a relationship.

Im gonna be completley honest guys;

i love the way the writers are doing this triangle...it has everyone up in arms, it has everyone almost argung about who liz should end up with..and ultimately it STILL has everyone guessing

this is the beauty of it for me;
the best love is always the one that you should not have...its the tough one but the passion makes it worth while at the end of the day...its the forbidden love that makes it all the more tempting just by having a taste of it...and its the kind of love that will keep you on your toes at every stage ... its real love.

But we ALL know we are going to get the denial ALL the way through the 3rd movie from elizabeth...because THAT adds extra tension...but that doesnt mean to say she is not going to respond to anything jack says or does...

IMO when jack trades elizabeth in AWE i think we're going to get a 'look' from her that they would maybe not have added into the final script...a 'look' that will show confusion and hurt...a 'look' that will confuse the audience...and THAT is what the writers want.

The writers are sitting on a gold mine here, and they know EXACTLY what needs to be added, and what doesnt to keep the fans seeing the movie. If they want a 4th movie then it rests on J/E to make it happen because THEY are the relationship seller....


So J/E dont get a kiss in AWE...but i'm betting they get so much more....


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 09:33 PM
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Mistypirate
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by shannstar79
YEA SHE LIKES OLDER MEN HEHEHEH



Who doesn't like older man? I think they are more interesting. big grin


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 09:33 PM
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IheartPocky
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Every guy I like is older. WAY older! lol Example: Johnny Deppsmile

I love this forum! So much information!


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2006 09:39 PM
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