Not to be all intellectual or anything, but I am working on a multi-cultural team right now and it has gotten me thinking about the clash of cultures that goes on in POTC, and probably has a lot to do with all the mis-communications and lack of communication between key characters.
For instance, it drives me crazy how Elizabeth never talks directly to Jack about their obvious attraction to each other. She comes from a restrained British-influenced culture, and Jack's bawdy humor probably makes her more uncomfortable than we give her credit for. I know we go on and on about how Elizabeth is the only one who can seemingly match Jack's wit and wiles, but I have been reconsidering that he might set her on edge far more than she shows. She keeps up a front (a strong one at that, which matches her culture very well--- in a sense, she's just like James) around him which often forces her to ignore/spat back Jack's advances and insinuations, when sometimes I get the feeling she would react much more strongly if she knew how. (I think sometimes she's just plain terrified of him, not that he will physically harm her, but because he has such an overwhelming personality).
On the other hand, look at the communication between Will and Tia. (PS, does anyone know what creole Tia speaks? What's the mix there? the accent seems quite African to me, but it would be cool to know specifically where.) Tia talks around issues, while Will attacks them directly. He has specific question; she chooses to answer all the questions except that one.
Okay I'm just rambling now. I just think it's really interesting to pinpoint why people arent getting along there, when they have the same overall goals. It's going to be really interesting how they all learn to deal with that when they fight Beckett.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I would say that Tia's accent is Haitian, meaning from Haiti and that she has some definite voodoo ties. This is interesting but I would say it's more about social class than culture. James and Liz were brought up to not show much emotion and to be proper because they're high class. Officers in the military and any relations to governors were the upper crust. Jack is obviously not upper crust, but he is intelligent and observant, which makes it hard for someone of the upper crust to talk to him since he throws off the status quo.
Will and Tia can probably talk directly because they are both lower class. In this time period, automatically being black and being a woman, Tia has two strikes against her and the fact she seems poor is the third strike. Other than her wisdom, she has nothing going for her class-wise. Will is a blacksmith. He's used to being around poor people like himself and knows how it feels to be talked down to. He can probably sympathize and relate to Tia and thus talks to her directly and openly...if somewhat a little afraid of her because she has crab claws and eyes and a dead guy in her bedroom.
Gender: Female Location: WheRe JacK is I'M There By His Side
^^ U know thats a great theory i know awhile back we had this discussion about this theory that indicated that Jack might be from a wealthy family because he is smart and speakes well and knows how to read and write and is smart man!
I think that Jack was living in a society much like Liz. He makes maps, his vocabulary is complexed, he can read, he is very smart. So I bet he was very well educated. He is the only person who understands the uptight society where Liz is from. He understands the preassure she is in.
There's definitely a cultural struggle! Its interesting to note that the pirate culture is one that is essentially on the fringe of society. They're mistreated, persecuted and mistrusted, when in fact, they are the more noble when compared to someone like Beckett. Who is more corrupt: a scallywag pirate, or a power hungry mogule like Beckett. Also, note the way that most of the characters have become pirates.
They've been declared outcasts from society because they did the right thing. It may not have been what society believed to be moral, but as Governor Swann says: sometimes to choose the right course demands in act of piracy. In fact, you could argue that a man like Beckett, who has all the power is the one who influenced society's perceptions of who a pirate is and why they ought to be shunned for his own personal benefit.
Moreover, if you think of the East India Trading company as the first major world wide corrporation, you'll find some interesting parallels to commercial world today.
2. i think i have mixed feelings about this--- I do agree that Jack was probably raised in an upper class place, but it can't have been too high up or he would never have worked for Beckett at all, and certainly not doing odd jobs, as some sources suggest. If he was the firstborn of a truly upperclass influential family, he would have had family responsibilities that would prevent him from entering a navy career, unless he ran away from home, which also seems unlikely because his father would have made sure none of the offices hired him. All that to say, Jack has a clear background in all things nautical, historical, etc. However, I would be more likely to attribute his social graces to the fact that he is a chameleon and could have easily picked them up by imitation (a la alejandro in mask of zorro).
I agree that he understands the society Elizabeth has come from, although with the way her father is wrapped around her finger, we can conjecture she spent more time looking at maps and hanging out on ships than she did at finishing school. Social training hasnt stuck with her, except for the arrogance it brings.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I have to agree that Jack was probably a big part of the noble class. He not only knows how to talk to Liz, he knows how to talk to Norrington. In COTBP, Jack is the one who talks Norrington into the decisions he makes right before they reach Barbossa. I think it's interesting they keep making Jack the culture-breaker. You noticed that? The things he wears come from other cultures, he refers to exotic places, he sits in lotus position while he makes Norrington dig. Some of the other characters like to keep class the way it is.
He must've learned that from experience, no doubt. It's amazing on how Jack understands the struggle Liz feels to get out of a corset and roam free out in the ocean. But for that, she needs to grow up. She is a little too arrogant at times and a little snobby MO. Don't get me wrong! She is a kick ass character, but she needs to grow up a little and to have in mind that she can't get all what she wants because of her looks.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
It is a beautiful sig, so vibrant.
Yeah, I'd say Liz's biggest weakness isn't the fact that she's emotional. Her emotions usually drive her to do good instead of bad, but I'd say she's guilty of being over-confident a lot of the time. Take for example burning the rum and every single thing on that island. She assumes "the entire royal navy is out looking for her," so they should be there only in about an hour or so. Well, an hour with no shade, nothing to do, and especially no water could have given her a hefty dose of sun stroke. I think it's the fact that nothing really bad has happened to her yet. I'm sure losing her mom at some point was hard, but even the pirates that kidnap her seem to admire her spunk.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Reading over my last post, Kate, I don't know if it applies to culture, but there is something to be said about the importance of Liz not having her mother, whereas Will had his until he was at least 12. Regardless of whether Liz's mom was a kickass tomboy or a proper lady, she would know the social graces and impart them to Liz, so you have to wonder if Liz would be AS rebellious if her mom were alive. She still probably would, but maybe not as much. Will's not as rebellious and it could be because he had a watchful mom.
I love the relationship Tia has with Will...I TOTALLY agree with the above statement. Will is very ill tempered, anxious and just not patient. Tia is very patient and she almost drags every detail and it almost drives Will crazy.
The best part is she enjoys it.
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mmmm... good point! seriously--- why do disney heroines never have a mother??? im trying to think of one disney girl who has had a mother... i guess sleeping beauty, but she didn't really know her. thats it i think. EVERY disney girl has an old, eccentric father and thats it: Belle, Jasmine, Jane, Ariel, Pocahontas, etc.... And of course Elizabeth. fun psychology there. hehe.
here's the problem with mothers--- like you said, they steady and tame people. Like Wendy in Peter Pan--- it was love/respect for her mom that made her come home from neverland and grow up. Disney generally doesnt pull that stunt--- they like their heroines spunky, rebellious, and scantily clad. Mothers interfere with all those things.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I was thinking of that same thing the other day! It used to be that no Disney character ever had a dad: Snow White, Cinderella, Dumbo, Bambi was separated from his for a while. I read somewhere that a lot of fairytales make the main character not have a mom because it was moms who told the stories. After people decided to tell fairytales to kids, the mom often took out the mom in the story to make her kids appreciate her a little more.
I never thought about how Will was impatient and Tia makes him wait...lol. He just seems so uncomfortable yet fascinated by her and that's how I felt about her. Like, "This chick is really weird and I can't understand a word she's saying but I WANT to understand what she's saying."
Gender: Female Location: on the dingy with dear ol' Jacky
WOW!!!!! Chiki I'm in love wiff your siggy! Very deep and very tastefull.
Great thread it's been a long time since we've all sat down and thought rationally and stopped freaking out and now we're starting to have loathes of threads like this. yaaaaaay!
Ok I guess I'm sorta into the idea of Jack being kinda from the upper class. Consider the clothes he wears they're ripped and old but in your mind if u take away all the filth and little personal accessories he's added over time in your ind and you'll see that his clothes are actually...pretty good.
Probably got that from working for Becket but it still shows that he was at least from a normal class because being a privateer he didn't HAVE to wear the frilly stuff.
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Jack is like a walking collage. An art project. A scrapbook. It's fascinating to me because for every argument there is for him being upper class, there's one for him being born and bred a pirate or at least some kind of criminal. do you think we'll find out, or do you think they will just tantilize us by keeping Jack's secrets? i reckon if you asked Jack he would claim to be a prince or something, since he tends to exaggerate his past...
With Will and Tia, i think Will is just a bit cocky still, and he knows Jack has the one-up on him in this situation (since Jack can understand Tia's rambling) and he hates that. This is just a theory of course, but I think in some way Will was a bit attracted to Tia (maybe in a small way the way Elizabeth is to Jack--- the mystery, the wisdom, the forbidden excitement of it) and it puts him in a state of duality, thus causing a lot of stress. he wants to be the pure, honorably fiance, but then Tia's carressing him and for heaven's sake, he's a man, so he responds in his mind, and then feels terrible about that. does that make sense?
Gender: Female Location: on the dingy with dear ol' Jacky
I love what u said "He''l probably say he's a prince" LOL
Yeah he probably would! I can see him tellinh everyone a story about how he's a prince but how he always wanted to be a pirate and so he lets a monkey rule his kingdom for him and runs away on the black pearl which he single handedly made over night.
Ok LOL yeah I've been watching to many movies..that story's unlikely for anyone to tell..even Jack but he'd probably make an intresting story out of it
I agree with the Will/Tia thing. there's chemistry and attraction wether that'll play out or not.
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Feb 26th, 2007 05:17 PM
