Feats aren't everything. She beat Zidane's whole team three times in a row without breaking a sweat, took out 100 soldiers single handedly, and is known as the greatest swordsman in the continent.
The "feats" line of reasoning is getting on my nerves. You don't need them to know someone is powerful. Say there was a character who was completely invincible, had the most powerful magic, and could make things happen with a thought but he was never seen in the game.
Does he have any feats to show?
No.
Would he beat Cloud?
Absolutely.
Beatrix defeating an entire team, especially full of the main characters, is a good display of power. Especially since that whole team defeated Trance Kuja, who would wipe the floor with Cloud in three seconds, since he got a little upset and destroyed a whole flipping world.
She didn't even defeat them once, but three times.
I'm not saying I think she can beat Cloud, but you shouldn't simply pass it off without feeling the need to back it up. She's strong.
1. No they wouldn't. Without a frame of reference, all of that means nothing when compared to another verse. The strongest character in one verse could be a pitiful weakling in another.
2. Trance Kuja easily crushed the team the moment he used Ultima. Also, the party, you know, has grown stronger, she and Steiner were fighting side-by-side when Alexandria was invaded, and both were having difficulty if I recall right.
3. I am saying she cannot beat Cloud since her only fights are against random soldiers, random monsters, and the party, NONE OF WHOM have any real feats I can recall, so there is no frame of reference.
1.) Are you honestly saying that we cannot conclude that an invincible, basically omnipotent extremely powerful being could beat Cloud because he has no feats? That seems logical to you? Honestly?
2.) He was beaten, though. Ultima was just one last ditch effort to take the team down with him. Which didn't work, as they all lived through it anyway.
3.) And I'm saying feats aren't NECESSARY in determining a characters power. They help, but are not absolutely necessary. The example I gave before is an example of someone we know is extremely powerful with out actually having to have him show it to us.
1. Basically omnipotent. Nowhere in your post implied that. Invincible? If they're invincible in the ****ing "Hey Arthur" universe, yes, I am saying that is perfectly logical. Do you actually know what a frame of reference is? It means we have other characters or aspects to compare them to so as to get an idea of their own power... Beatrix has little.
2. ... Wait, are you trying to imply that Beatrix>Trance Kuja? No, it beat the team, they were only "saved" by Necron.
3. Feats are the most important aspect of determining a character's power. Because statements will NEVER equal feats, nor will their level in the verse if their is no frame of reference.
Invincible in any universe is invincible last I checked. I said he could make things happen by thinking about it. That's almost omnipotent.
What do you mean Beatrix has little? She has the whole FF9 world. So we at least know she isn't the strongest swordsman by "Arther" terms.
No, they were still alive after that attack. And besides they still beat him anyway. He did that because he had lost. Anyway, I don't think Beatrix is stronger than Trance Kuja, but that shows that beating the FF9 team isn't something that should be taken lightly. The FF9 characters are pretty powerful.
Your complete dependence on feats is illogical. We all know that a character can be proven strong without ever having to show it. If the game says the character is really strong, you don't need feats to back it up.
1. It's a No-Limits fallacy. If someone is invincible in one verse, they could be utterly weak and pitiful in another. Almost omnipotent? You clearly do not grasp the concept of omnipotence. You said make "things" happen, what things? Explosions? Make objects move? Can he give his opponent's erections? Elaborate nucka.
2. She has a hundred red shirts, and the featless FFIX party. Also, the party caught up to her, Steiner kept up with her when fighting at her side, and once again, they both were having difficulty.
3. They were all defeated by him the moment he cast Ultima, and right after they appeared to Necron... Who is the concept of death itself. I may be forgetting something, but based on what I remember and what I just looked up on the FF wiki, signs point to them being killed by it. Why not? It is important to note that other than Ultima, we have little to go on in terms of Trance Kuja's power. Once again, Beatrix beat a weaker party. Also, based on what? We have nothing to gauge their strength on other than the final boss, and the heroes beating a stupidly more powerful enemy is nothing new in FF, FF loves PIS. Tell me... How powerful? Can you tell me how strong they are? Or how fast? Or are you basing everything on them "beating" Trance Kuja? Who did not really lose, he won with Ultima.
4. Complete dependence. Riiiiiiiiight. Are you illiterate? It would explain your replies to me. I said that if we have a frame of reference to base a stronger character on, we can reasonably assume power, it is called powerscaling. For instance, I argued for Slayer against Kain despite Slayer's lack of feats based on his place in the Guilty Gear universe, he is the strongest character, rivaled by only one guy. But I could reasonably do that based on the rest of the cast, he could easily keep up with lightning-timers, and was not harmed by class 100 character's attacks, time warpers and reality warpers pose no threat to him. Because I could compare him to those characters, I could reasonably conclude he would beat Kain.
1.) Ugh, don't dissect the example. The point was, the character can be known to ultra pwn every enemy ever with the power of pure awesome and brilliance. And we can know that, without feats.
2.) Feat-less FF party? They have feats all through the game. What feats does Cloud have?
3.) He was defeated, though. Ultima was his last ditch effort, notice he was pretty much dead after that battle. That was either from Ultima, thus showing he was suiciding it to take them down, or he was dead just because of the FF party. Either option shows he was defeated. He lost that fight. Ultima was his, I'm dieing last hit, attack. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was a suicide attack, since you see him get blasted off with the explosion as well. So he saw he had lost, and decided to try and take them down with him by using Ultima.
4.) You said Cloud wins because Beatrix has no feats. Sounds pretty dependent to me. You based your conclusion off of nothing more than lack of feats. And why can't Beatrix be compared to the characters around her? Just like your example, we know Beatrix is one of the best sword fighters in FF9. She takes out small armies by herself, as well as establishing her dominance over the whole party numerous times. Also, her battle with the Mistedons shows nothing of her having any sort of trouble. It's Steigner who is getting wounded and Beatrix is worried about HIM. Beatrix is fine.
1. If he has a frame of reference in the other characters, characters who are at or above Cloud's level, yes, we can assume he would beat Cloud.
2. Show me them. What feats does Cloud have? Being faster than people who block machine-gun fire in combat, and being able to knock a giant dragon to the ground with his sword. He can cut sections of buildings in half while they fall on him. What does the FFIX party have?
3. Why did you write a paragraph of you repeating the same thing over and over again? So he stalemated the party then, because neither could take Ultima. If Kuja had, I dunno, just used Ultima at the beginning from a distance, he would have won the fight immediately, but being a FF villain, of course he didn't.
4. Oh my God it is like talking to a brick. Nothing more? SHE HAS NO FRAME OF REFERENCE. We cannot base her power off of anything because the things she defeats have no traits which we can gauge her own power from, she has beaten random soldiers and the FFIX party, whom also have nothing we can gauge their power from. Steiner was only wounded because he protected Beatrix, was he not?
Facts are, you cannot logically tell how powerful Beatrix is other than she was above the FFIX party, that does not put her above Cloud.
1. Okay, so as long as we know he isn't ultra powerful when compared to, say, and ant. Right, I get that. That is like, an extremely rare accurance and certainly isn't the case here. FF9 has just as much powerhouses as FF7. Probably more, actually, since the villians in FF9 destroy worlds, and the Villians in FF7 piss them off.
2. Show you them? What are all the events of the game? From fighting undead plant things to taking on planet busting Genomes, it's all there. Have you played the game? All of what you just described came from Advent Children, which is not an accurate representation of Clouds abilities.
3. Right, Ultimia is the only thing he's got. That's like saying Ultimicia would win because she would just use time compression before the fight. In a fight with the FF9 party, he looses, unless he casts Ultima from a distance before the actual fight starts. That's like saying a demolition guy is more powerful if he blows up a building from a safe distance. He still wouldn't win in an actual fight.
4. What are you talking about?! No frame of reference? The things she defeats have no traits... right, cuz that makes sense. The FF9 party has nothing to gauge their power on, huh? Then neither does the FF8 party, or the FF7 party.
Tell me, does the FF8 party have any feats? Can you name them? What about the FF7 party? Outside of Advent Children of course. Does a game have to have a movie made from it before we can judge anything from the characters?
Steigner never protects Beatrix at all. When did that happen? All you see is them fighting Mistedons and Steigner gets wounded. He never does so from protecting her.
And why not? Are you saying Cloud can beat the FF9 party? Why?
1. No, it's not. Beatrix is more powerful than people who have no showings of power, whoopty ****ing doo. With the sole exception of Necron, FFIX is not a very powerful universe, with Trance Kuja and the Eidolons being the only note-worthy factors. Only one FFIX villain has destroyed a planet, and by destroyed, I mean he destroyed the surface, not the entire planet. You know, the kind of shit Jenova has been doing for thousands of years. The kind of shit Omega was built to do. The kind of shit Sephiroth was going to do. FFIX is only stronger due to the existence of Necron, who is capable of turning the universe to nothing.
2. There is one planet busting Genome, and he can only do so with a single attack... Which when used wiped out the party both times. Undead plant things? Because that proves sooooooooo much. You're using A>B>C logic, stop doing so, especially in regards to the fight with the villain, those are nearly always PIS, in many videogames, not just FF either. Advent Children not an accurate representation? GTFO, it is a canon movie in the FFVII universe, and then Crisis Core had the characters doing similar feats, as did Dirge of Cerberus, it is very much an accurate representation. Oh, and before you bring up them not wanting the fights to be realistic, he was referring to the physics behind the fights, he wanted them to look cool.
3. Then please kindly show me another attack that is capable of destroying the surface of a planet. Ultimecia kind of already did use Time Compression when the party fought her and was eating all time and space... The party was just immune to her powers because of Love and Friendship, canon explanation. You're right, he would lose, because he did not just use his most powerful attack from the beginning. Your example is retarded and you should be ashamed of yourself for using it. The difference is, Ultima is an attack of Kuja's he can use at ANY time, it would be like getting into a fight but not using your arms for seemingly no reason, he gimped himself by not just blowing them away with it, something he was very capable of doing as we saw. You are under the assumption he could not use Ultima in an "actual fight."
4. Then kindly bring up their qualities which makes being above them impressive. You're very much right, the FFVII party nor the FFVIII party didn't have anything to gauge their abilities by either in their original games.
No, they have none, at least not from their original games. Well I guess Zell did make a train car shake from punching it in frustration, but other than that, none I recall. Are you trying to imply I thought they did in their original games? No, it doesn't, it just needs quantifiable abilities we know the characters have, for example, we know Dante is capable of easily dodging bullets from DMC, and we know Kratos is really strong from GoW. Neither have movies. Also, stop putting words into my mouth, I don't do it to you and you are my inferior, show some respect to your betters.
Can you give me the video? I looked it up and did not find it, and it has been years since I last played the game.
Yes, Cloud could beat the FFVII party, because we know he is much faster than any of them and stronger, as long as he killed Garnet first he would crush the party.
KMC Community Forums
Apr 17th, 2010 03:56 AM
Also, the party, you know, has grown stronger, she and Steiner were fighting side-by-side when Alexandria was invaded, and both were having difficulty if I recall right.
If Kuja had, I dunno, just used Ultima at the beginning from a distance, he would have won the fight immediately, but being a FF villain, of course he didn't. 
