Thor vs. Superman: How close (or far) apart are they?
This isn't a typical vs. one-on-one thread, but hopefully this will get a clear stance on where the characters stand against each other directly. Essentially, I'd like every one in this thread, whether they believe Thor would win or Superman, to state as specifically as possible what the bare minimum it would take for the character in the minority to beat the character YOU believe takes the majority most of the time.
These can be a specific kind of amp, a specific version of the character, specific scenario, whatever you can think of, so long as it's the bare minimum for the character you think typically loses to win this time around.
Since I personally think Thor should take Superman 6/10, I think the bare minimum Kal needs to take the majority on Thor would be a flat out, clear cut, defined resistance to magic. Even then, Thor has strength in Superman's tier (can't say how anyone can claim otherwise) so the physical force behind his blows are still immense.
If Thor had Superman's speed he would win 10/10. If he had 70% of his speed then probably 7/10, but 50% of his speed and Thor loses 7/10. So Thor needs about 60% of superman's speed to break even.
This is my opinion as I have not calculated anything on this yet.
Who the hell takes Superman's magical weakness into account in their fights? It would just make things uneven for Clark, even if we try to average out his low showings against magic. And he has some low, low showings. His high ones doesn't make it as bad.
Thor has him beat in versatility, and takes it home all day in terms of power.
Durability and strength, if their is any difference between the two, it would be so small it would not matter. Although I believe Thor has the better damage soak and Clark has him beat in the cosmetology department and initial damage.
Reflexes and combat speed go to Clark, but it's nothing Thor cannot handle. Taking into account Thor's own higher end speed feats, and how rarely Superman uses his speed when he engages beings in his own tier, and Thor should do just fine in this category.
Flight speed? What's Clark's best speed feat in that category? I know some of his best, but I don't know if I am missing/forgetting his complete best.
Thor's best would probably be flying from Asgard to Earth in a few moments. Without Mjolnir to boot.
Anyways, if these two fought, chances are it would be nothing more than a slug fest where they trade blows, lock hands and stalemate etc.
Any character with flight can achieve any speed they want, providing they have sufficient time to accelerate. The question is not what speed a character can achieve but how fast is their acceleration.
In other words, what is the top speed they can achieve in battle distance (3m away) or at what speed can they achieve in the first few nanoseconds?
Slimmest is not fun. If Clark want's a decent majority?
Superman needs to get blood lusted and fight smartly. Use his speed effectively. He needs to lose the magical weakness if that is being taken into account. It would also be helpful to Clark if Thor does not use any omni-directional attacks, force fields and resorts to swinging his hammer like a deranged brute.
I made this post in the other thread, but it was in response to the exact same question as the OP, so I think it warrants the repeat post.
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If Thor had the generic DC-level speeds, he would decimate most of their top tiers, the thing is he doesn't even though most Thor supporters says he does. The feats required just aren't there to back it up. I've said this before, Thor may have one or two TRUE feats in his entire history to support he can deal with that level of speed, and in my view of comic characters , thats not enough. If people want Thor to qualify as having combat speed/reaction comparable to Superman, then he needs to have consistent feats.
Now this brings me to another side issue of Hulk. Hulk, I think we all agree is a freaking snail. Yet he manages to hit Thor no problem, you could even say they are fighting at the same speeds since they seem to trade blows evenly. Now because I respect Thor, I've always thought Thor losing to Hulk is complete PIS. Even in a slugfest Thor should take him no problem at all. People need to understand Hulk is one of Marvel's most popular characters, and I'm not surprised at all that he beats people he should have no business fighting.
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So I'm actually killing two birds with one stone here. Here is the choice Thor supporters need to make, either:
1. Thor struggling with Hulk even in a slugfest is complete PIS. In a KMC Comic Vs debate, he would completely dominate him.
Outcomes:
You can contend (even though I completely disagree) that Thor has the speed required to deal with the likes of Superman.
You agree that even in physical stats, Hulk is not in the same league as Superman,Thor etc.
Or
2. Thor struggling with Hulk even in a slugfest is NOT PIS. If you take this stance, you are really confirming Thor does not have the speed required to touch any low-level speedster let alone someone like Superman.
Outcomes:
You cannot contend that Thor has the speed required to deal with the likes of Superman.
You agree that even in physical stats, Hulk has comparable strength with the likes of Thor, Superman etc.
Make the choice people. I'm sick of this double-dipping, saying Thor is in Superman's league, while when supporting Hulk, reference him being able to take on Thor. Which is it?
Supes beats thor on stats (by a little)
Thor beats supes on versatility (by a fair bit)
Supes applies his powers far more effectively which gives him the majority.
If thor used his exotic powers 1/5 fights rather than 1/20+ it'd even out.
I wonder the IQ of you guys. Maybe I'm an oddball. I'm guy who has an above average IQ that like comics. It is clear that if someone can move at least 6ft before you can move 1ft (or 1ft before you can move 2 inches) that you will get hit everytime. There is no defense. Speed is the key and has always been the key.
Superman can beat God provided God had human speed, reflexes, and durability if they engaged after the bell rings.
Also you guys are forgetting that Thor is astonomically weaker without his hammer. He can lose it by getting it knocked away, getting hit and dropping it, throwing it and missing, etc. This is a huge factor too besides speed.
Give Thor superman's speed and he wins 10/10. I would become a huge Thor fan then.
Did you somehow forget that Superman has struggled in slug fests countless times, without resorting to speed blitzing his opponent, and instead simply slugged it out? Or the time bricks who don't have the ability to fly have gone toe to toe with him and caused him grief?
Even when he faces someone with super speed of their own, does he resort to it, like say Captain Marvel, or Black Adam? From what I've seen, the answer is no. For the big majority at least.
Superman does not speed blitz nearly as much as some people would want him to. The vast majority of the time, he simply slugs it out simply like Thor.
And Thor, CHOOSES to slug it out with the Hulk. He has literally punked him with his speed, moving so fast that the Hulk has no idea where he has gone, when he is pressed.
The Hulk is also a resourceful bastard, and pretty damn fast when he needs to be. Even if Superman fought the Hulk, the result would be the same, a slug fest like the majority of his fights.
And Thor does have numerous speed feats to his name and not one or two. Not even close.
This is a forum fight, but C.I.S. is still in play. That's why we don't go around arguing Soul Absorption, God Blast, etc. for Thor even though full capacity is in play as well. And we still have to take comics into account, and all their battles tells us that Thor chooses to slug it out. And all of Superman's battles point to the fact that he slugs out for the large majority of the your time.
That's of course if I understood C.I.S and the Full Capacity balance properly on these boards.
I've always wondered why people (mostly Marvel supporters) dismiss or trivialize the paramount value of speed. Is it because many Marvel characters lack it, or do they genuinely lack the insight to see how speed is often the key factor to the victory of the speedster?
Its called PIS. Same reason why Flash comics last more than one page. Of course at times they have to do a a little non-superspeed fight. I'm being fair, I'm saying this is the same reason why Thor doesn't kick Hulk's ass right there and then: PIS. The point is, people can either accept Hulk is not in Thor's league or, otherwise, they shouldn't claim that Thor has uber combat reflexes comparable to Superman.
Again with the astronomically weaker without the hammer? What the heck is wrong with you...I've argued this countless times against you, and you without any evidence keep pushing this nonsense. I guess you don't believe me, but believe Thor as Thor said it best:
".....Thor has not one hammer, merely----but three!"
And just to note, Thor went to utterly destroy that opponent (In three punches.). The same opponent who managed to hold his own against Thor to a near stalemate until he fell into the fires of his land.
Not it's not P.I.S because it's happened for the vast majority of his entire career. You have a handful of showings of Superman speed blitzing an opponent under rare circumstances like the Imperiex Probe scene or Mongul scene and suddenly, the rest of his career is P.I.S?
That's just stupid to be honest. Superman will slug it out just like Thor would. For more than 90% of the time in my opinion.
I cannot name one time, or even think of one, where Superman immediately speed blitzes or does something even close to that to an opponent from the get go.
Thor slugging it out with the Hulk is NOT P.I.S and will more than likely happen in their next fight because that is what they choose to do. Slug it out.
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Feb 22nd, 2010 08:08 AM
