Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
DISCLAIMER: I feel like this thread or its contents might have been made or discussed earlier, but I was unable to find anything similar. Pardon me if I repeat something.
I always wondered if KOTOR was Bioware’s approach as to what Anakin Skywalker should have been in the PT.
In the Prequel Trilogy, especially in AOTC, Anakin is depicted as querulous, creepy, arrogant, and rapacious. His attitude doesn’t improve in ROTS, except that he has become extremely gullible. His fear of losing Padme, ultimately a product of his unsympathetic personality, leads to his fall to the Dark Side. There is almost nothing ‘tragic’ about his downfall; yes, he wanted to save the one he loved. However, he was blinded by intoxicating, unnatural attachment.
Revan, on the other hand, is just as talented as Anakin (except in Force potential, since Anakin had more midi-chlorians). Yet, he is described as charismatic, inquisitive, and having tremendous compassion for the Republic and its people (see his reaction to the massacre on Cathar). He turns his back on the Jedi Council and leads a victorious campaign against the Mandalorians. However, the madness of war drives him into becoming callous and calculating. Nevertheless, even when he fell to the Dark Side, he intended to establish a long-lasting Empire that would have both economic and militant stability, thereby ensuring peace. This seems more in-line with the persona of the OT Darth Vader, who, while craving power, sought order and a stronger galaxy (though that Sith notion was truly unrighteous and tyrannical)
Similar to Raskolnikov from Crime & Punishment, Revan turned against the Jedi Code (law) for a higher social good (to save the Republic from the Mandalorians). However, his altruistic nature combined with an idealistic egoism became twisted in the war; he started to justify his ruthless tactics and crimes. Ultimately, he saw people, and soon entire planets, as expendable, thereby leading to the chain of events that led him to the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.
Revan’s fall was how Anakin’s should have been treated: more as a result of the chaos of the Clone Wars coupled with the imminent loss of Padme. Anakin should have deceived himself as a Napoleonic hero, and ultimately have fallen to the dangers of this line of thought. His fall in ROTS was weak, sudden, and not tragic.
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Re: Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
Dude, to see someone using Crime & Punishment as an example in this forum amazes me. Yeah, you are right, the problem is that you are using a masterpiece to compare with a movie with a very weak plot.
But I know what you mean, Raskolnikov's fall is typical of many great people who had the best of the intentions in the begining but in the end they thought themselves as above everything and everybody else, slowly becoming something they couldn't even recognize in the mirror.
But that's a good plot. And this is star wars...
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Re: Re: Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
When you have three movies to show Skywalker falling into darkness and becoming the legendary Darth Vader, there is great potential for an incredible story.
And haha sorry, I just read Crime & Punishment last week, and the themes of the novel are still in my head. I couldn't resist.
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Re: Re: Re: Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
I know that, but it was GL's lack of vision that made this situation. In fact, all the concept that you can be 100% pure and turn to 100% dark is a completely fail plot. No one goes from one of the lightest guys around to mass murderer in less then 5 minutes... Yeah, I know that Anakin was ALREADY a mass murder before ROTS, but still, the plot is so undeveloped it actually hurts...
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Re: Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
I've always thought this. Frankly, since '05 I thought Revan was meant to be the Chosen One of his era, and that other EU characters would follow suit except for the post-OT era which is FUBAR.
However, I heavily dispute this:
Revan, on the other hand, is just as talented as Anakin (except in Force potential, since Anakin had more midi-chlorians).
Anakin's measurement of midi-chlorians is only ever used in context of the PT. Midi-chlorians literally have no mention, bearing, or source in material before the PT, and therefore it is unreasonable to conclude Anakin's measurements are for all time. This isn't to diminish Anakin so much as to point out that his uniqueness is era-specific, and earlier Force users may have similar or even higher potentials and it would still not harm the storyline.
Also, to compare Revan and Anakin, both are mechanics of some skill, both are great pilots, both have strategic knowledge (although Revan is clearly better at this, in Jedi Trial Anakin shows considerable talent as well, he's just too impatient to focus on it). Both are described by those around them as brimming with the Force, peerless, etc. Both have mysterious origins, lacking father figures. Both of them brought balance to the Force for their era, albeit not in a way either of them expected. Both of them overthrew a dominant evil empire of Sith by a combination of fortune, Republic desperation armada, and an epic lightsaber battle in view of it all. Etc. etc. You could probably find a more detailed checklist elsewhere if you look hard enough.
Re: Re: Is Revan a better model of what PT Anakin should have been?
Unless stated otherwise, I would speculate the Chosen One prophecy as being first formulated rather recently in the Order's history (perhaps a thousand years before Skywalker), in which case, there is nothing against saying there could have been other 'Chosen One'-esque individuals prior to the first mentioning of this prophecy. Therefore, I would agree with you that Revan was probably a Chosen One of his era. However, the counterargument is that the prophecy states that individual would be, "A vessel of pure Force.. more powerful than any Jedi in history." In which, it would only be referring to one individual (Anakin Skywalker).
And I agree with your second paragraph. Revan is crafted as an Anakin Skywalker 2.0.
However, I don't understand your midi-chlorian/PT argument. The prophecy refers to Anakin. The "vessel of pure Force" refers to him having the highest midi-chlorian count. By having the highest midi-chlorian count, he has the highest potential of any Force user, meaning he had the chance of being "more powerful than any Jedi in history."
Even if it's only referred to the context of the PT, the measurements were the highest of any Jedi up to that point. Therefore, Skywalker had higher Force potential than anybody prior to him.
Perhaps I didn't understand your argument. If I didn't, please explain again.
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F*cking midi-chlorians. Apparently in those "zombie" Star Wars novels, Vader was creating a Sith virus that would affect midi-chlorians so as to gain immortality. The final step in which was to eat a living Jedi's heart...
I think Janus was implying that, just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded (and specifically the highest of his era [Rise of the Empire]), doesn't necessarily mean that he in fact did have the highest count, ever. Ever.
If my careful and exhaustive skimming of Wookiee's page on midi's has relented any info, it's that even before the Jedi Order was founded, Force sects were studying midi's. And apparently: "The Sith knew of midi-chlorians by c. 4,645 BBY, when Darth Drear utilized them in his experiments on immortality." But whether the Jedi actively/frequently conducted midi-chlorian counts is unknown.
Regardless, I very much doubt Lucas will ever let another character except his beloved Anakin have the most midi's in history. The man ordered the death of an EU character to protect his, he'd never let someone tarnish both his Vader and his ingenious concept of bacterial magic.
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They're actual new novels too. I figured a zombie storyline would have been done in a non-canon short story or comic in the 90's, but these days...
Glad I don't bother with the novels.
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1. Midi-chlorians are studied by various sects before the movie era. However, they are not explicitly recorded or used by the Jedi prior to the Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY.
This naturally leads to the conclusion that Anakin's high rating is only verifiable among the Jedi post Ruusan. There's no evidence anywhere stating that it was a Jedi Order SoP for millenia before that, nor that records which Qui-Gon referenced would include non-Jedi users.
This leaves the door open considerably.
2. George Lucas is less aware of EU declarations of power than rich people are aware that K-Mart still exists. He has explicitly stated that Anakin is the strongest in his own movie storyline and has not seen fit to attempt an absolute over EU, which he states is "not his world". He explicitly only prevents usage of names and deaths of movie characters unless approved by himself.
So again, back to square one. Anakin's parasite level is not an absolute piece of evidence. And even if it was, his showings are lower than most EU Force users. Potential is a glass that must be filled, not a measurement of current power.
1. Possibly. However Skywalker was likely conceived by midi-chlorians themselves ("vessel of pure Force"), a phenomena never been heard before in the Jedi Order (meaning his body is inundated with midi-chlorians). Furthermore, his maximum Force potential is said to be twice that of Sidious, who is arguably the most powerful Sith of all time. His midi-chlorian count is also higher than Yoda's, who is said to have been the mightiest Jedi in the Order up to the PT era. Unless you can argue Yoda hadn't attained his potential yet, it's positive no known prior Jedi had a Force potential higher than Anakin's. Finally, Luke Skywalker is said to have a Force potential roughly on par with his father's, and he ends up as arguably the strongest Jedi of all time. Therefore, the Chosen One's Force potential must have been off-the-charts.
These three points demonstrate that Anakin Skywalker, more or less, probably had the highest Force potential.
2. More Lucas bullsh1t to me. Even if he doesn't see it as "his world," he still green-lights everything that happens in the EU, and periodically intervenes in EU development.
3. Anakin's ragestomp of Dooku was a pretty good showing, among other things.
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Aug 1st, 2011 05:43 PM
