In the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas, the creator and ultimate authority regarding the Star Wars universe, responded to the question of whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine," and that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor. - The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
Recently, I came across some interesting articles, whereupon George Lucas indicated, that had Anakin decided to fight Sidious in a lightsaber duel, without his injuries, he would have beaten him.
This same Anakin could defeat Dooku as well.
So I wondered - is there any salt to the idea of Dooku being able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel?
Dooku was noticably afraid to fight Sidious, but he also wanted Sidious dead in the end.
So, how afraid does Dooku have to be, really? Sidious elected to fight Windu and his comrades, largely without the aid of offense Force powers.
Does Dooku have anything to fear from Sidious in a lightsaber duel?
Who is truly superior? Who would truly survive if they duked it out?
What evidence tells you who would win?
~
Shortly before the commencement of Palpatine's plan to have himself kidnapped and have Dooku fight Anakin onboard The Invisible Hand, Dooku has a dark dream, where he sees himself falling to Skywalker.
Having had enough of Sidious and his seedy schemes, the Count decides to head to Palpatine's Office on Coruscant, where he will face and end the insidious Dark Lord, once and for all.
Managing to get into the building without detection, and making his way to Palpatine's Office - the Count confidently strides into the room to see a surprised and robed Palpatine turn to stare back at him as he walks in.
The two don't speak; silence engulfs the room.
Then, the dual hiss-snap of two red blades.
Starting Distance Apart: 10 Feet.
Palpatine and Dooku don't seek to use Offense Force powers - only Passive ones, to amp their abilities, etc.
I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.
This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.
I'm not sure if Lucas has directly stated that but it wouldn't surprise me. He did always say Anakin could have defeated him if not for his injuries. Most people assumed he was talking about Anakin's potential only, but I was never fully convinced of that.
He also said after his injuries that: "From then on he was never as strong as the Emperor,"(Rolling stones interview) implying that before his injuries he was that strong.
I always thought it would probably be a good fight (Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious).
But even IF Anakin could beat both Sidious and Dooku that doesn't mean Sidious and Dooku have to be equals. I really don't see Anakin defeating Sidious without Immense Difficulty.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 11:09 AM
In Sabers that would make Sidious >> Anakin > Dooku.
That would make too much difference in the saber prowess between Sidious and Dooku Imo.
And then of course Yoda>Sidous in sabers. So if this chain was true then there really wouldn't have been any sort of Saber fight at all between Yoda and Dooku.
Nah. I'm certain Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious would be a good Saber fight.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 06:26 PM
You rely heavily on A>B>C arguments it would seem.
The quote from GL stating that Anakin would be able to compete with Sidious barring his injuries is a reference to Anakin achieving his potential and overcoming him... certainly not RotS Ani.
BTW - I never said that it wouldn't be a "good fight."
__________________ “Life is tough, but it is tougher when you’re stupid.” -John Wayne
Last edited by Jinsoku Takai on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 06:47 PM
I don't. Sidious is faster (blitzing 3 Jedi Council Members, Windu needing to amp up to be on par with him), stronger (saberlocking Maul and Opress at the same time) and more skilled (His fight with the brothers showed excellent skill and he stalemated Mace freaking Windu) than Anakin. He is utterly above Anakin in every way and would take him without much difficulty. Stop relying on ABC's so much.
Sidious is probably faster I agree, but I don't see anything to make me believe it's by a massive amount. And no way am I going to believe he's stronger with Anakin's Cyborg arm and his massive Force reserves.
Kenobi also saberlocked Maul and Opress and also showed excellent skill against them. Anakin is said to be just as skilled as Kenobi but a lot stronger and massively larger force reserves.
So no I don't believe Sidious is better in every single way. Not by a long shot.
Sidious might have (temporarily) stalemated Mace frigging Windu but Skywalker overpowered Count frigging Dooku by a noticeable margin.
End of the day Skywalker defeated the most powerful opponent he faced which was Count Dooku. So I don't really get where this assumed gap comes in between Sidious's and Skywalker's Saber Prowess.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove either way tbh. Lucas has said a few different things. He's said OT Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious and he's said that same Vader "has lost a lot of power in the force" comparing him to ROTS Anakin.
He's also said "From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, more like Darth Maul or Count Dooku,"
That seems to imply before his injuries he was that strong.
Point being he's not exactly been clear on the subject. But a level of parity has been implied.
And as for all his unusable potential, people quickly forget his feat on Mortis, where he clearly did use his full potential. You can argue that was just a mortis thing, but he did it. And the Son and Daughter also had access to the amp available on Mortis.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 09:45 PM
'Probably?' You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?
Lol, Anakin isn't automatically stronger just because he has a cyborg arm or because he has large Force reserves. Sidious held off Savage Oppress with one freaking hand. You know, the guy who threw Dooku into a wall the second he tried to block his attacks?
For 3 seconds.
Kenobi showed obvious desperation against them and they were hampered by the envirnment. Sidious kicked their asses in a open space without one of them having a bad knee while grinning up a storm.
Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.
I don't think the difference is as large as you make out.
So did Obi-Wan.
So imagine how much longer could Anakin do it for?
They wern't hampered at all for the Saber fight. The closed environment probably limited Opress using his not very targetted Force waves but that's about it.
If anything the environment favored the brothers in the Saber portion of the fight. Obi-Wan was fighting 2 physical beasts in a small cave stuck in between them. He had no room to give ground.
He best them through superior Saber skills.
Anakin's got massive amounts of strength as Dooku noted. He was at least as fast as Dooku. And you admitted yourself recently that his Saber skill is seriously understated on these boards.
Unless you can back it up, I'm not too concerned with what you believe.
No he didn't.
I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.
Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?
No he didn't. He got lucky. They were clearly going to win until Savage's knee went.
None of that makes him on Sidious' level.
And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad. Your argument still hinges on ABC logic though. Recall that even heavily boosted by a darkside nexus Dooku was no match for Yoda. Sidious obviously was.
And likewise I have no interest in what you chose to believe without you backing it up. Saying he blitzed whoever is not proof.
Anakin defeated Dooku who went toe to toe with Yoda. So I don't see any reason to believe Sidious's speed is just too much for Anakin.
Oh yes he did.
Are you really going to argue Anakin isn't substantially stronger than Kenobi?
The only reason Anakin wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan is because Obi-Wan kept giving ground so that wouldn't happen. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin is just as skilled as Obi-Wan but Stronger.
Not to mention you have no idea how many seconds Sidious held off the 2 brothers for. Until you do it's a moot point. Considering Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan, and yet even Obi-Wan did it, it's a moot point anyway.
LOL The director said Obi-Wan won that fight because he was properly focused this time and because he's a very skilled swordsman.
How exactly is smashing his knee in getting lucky?
I think after overpowering Dooku the way he did we should at least consider the possibility. I never stated it as definite. Unlike you who has. Which means it's your job to prove it. Which I'm afraid you haven't done.
We have no idea how much of a boost Dooku was getting on Vjun. And the fight was basically like in AOTC anyway, just that he seemed to have held his own for longer this time.
As for the ABC logic, it's all we have to go on really. What exactly are you going on that makes you so certain Sidious would kick Anakin's butt in a Saber fight?
Which only shows how impressive Obi-Wan is and doesn't prove that Anakin was weak. I remember you saying something similar, when someone was lowballing your favorite characters.
Info comes from book but it outright contradicts movie.
"Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake."
In movie not a signle time anyone's lightsaber touched walls. The only exception was when Kenobi's lightsaber touched cable.
"[i]The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall- but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way. Savage charged in to strike, leaving his left arm exposed for a split second. It was all the time Obi-Wan needed. He lunged and sliced the Zabrak's yellow-and-black arm off at the shoulder.[/]"
In book brothers got in each other's way and as result Opress made silly move. In movie brothers surrounded Kenobi without any problem, then were attacking from opposite sides without getting in each other's way and Opress lost arm in completely different circumstances.
Imho author had very limited info of the fight and wrote it before episode came out. To be fare no one would expect Kenobi to utilize kicks so effectively and doing so much acrobatics.
That's funny. With same success I can say that Yoda is below Sidious. He needed Ataru to elevate himself up to Sidious' level.
KMC Community Forums
Jan 23rd, 2013 10:34 AM
