Experience: The Jedi Knights of the Knights of the Old Republic are more experienced in intense and melee/lightsaber combat based off of all available sources. The Jedi being born and fighting in the Mandalorian Wars would have known, lived, and trained in war their entire life. From the origins of the original battles in the Beast Wars to the final battle over Rakata Prime, the galaxy has been consumed in approximately 45 years of continuous and brutal warfare. They were raised in this environment, and obviously would train under the Jedi to combat the Krath, Brotherhood, Terentatek, Mandalorians, or Sith respectively. Compare this kind of extensive training to the average Jedi Knight leading into the Clone Wars who never experienced such training since no one anticipated such a large scale war to take place. Hell, besides combat sparring with their other Jedi Knights which are not accurate representations of a individuals power, the Jedi haven't fought a dueling force like the Sith for about 1,000 years. Compare 45 years of continuous warfare to 3 years of continuous warfare and you will see the Jedi of Revan's era utterly outcasses that of Mace Windu's (9x more warfare experience possible). Canonical source and extra information is supplied in the quote below:
"From one end of the Knights of the Old Republic era to the other, the galaxy is constantly torn by wars, and times of peace seem more rare then times of conflict. Most of the heroes in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign will have experienced nearly a lifetime of war, and have likely felt the rippling effect of massive battles and horrific devastation. As such, the face of the galaxy is much different than in the classic era; the advent of the Clone Wars was a major event in the galaxy, while the Republic has already been weathered two major major wars by the time the Jedi Civil War begins. More then just affecting the heroes, the constant warfare plaguing the galaxy has changed the face of the planets and their populations irrecoverably. Most planets have militias and defense forces that are significantly more powerful than they would have in peacetime." --KotORCG
Skill: Lightsaber prowess has a lot to do with experience and training. Dueling is a prime component of the galaxy's culture as of Revan's time, unlike the widespread pacifists seen in the Prequel Trilogy. The excess amount of individuals training and perfecting their skills with a blade requires the Jedi Order to do the same (but only better) in order to continue to being the dominant force of peace and protection in the known galaxy. This continual practice is interwoven with the frequent encounters with Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. In fact, sourcebooks state that a "large number of Jedi" during Revan's time "become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat." This mastery with a blade is nearly impossible to achieve for the average Jedi Knight merely fighting battledroids as seen in the Clone Wars. Let's face it, fighting Mandalorians and Sith are going to make you a better warrior a lot quicker then a couple battledroids. I have yet to see a quote that considers an average Jedi Knight of the Prequel Trilogy highly skilled in any form of combat. Masters like Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu are special for a reason. Below are additional sources that support my statements above, along with extra material added for some toppings:
"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG
"Throughout the history of the galaxy, dueling has seen many degrees of acceptability, militarily, legally, and socially. Some cultures or subcultures regard dueling as an honorable and civilized method of settling disputes, but others see dueling as barbaric. During the Knights of the Old Republic era, melee combat has resurged, forcing many to study dueling as a means to survive on the battlefield. In fact, dueling is allowed on more civilized worlds then gladiatorial combat, given the higher cultural status dueling enjoys. The melee duelist specializes in fighting a single opponent. The melee duelist selects a primary weapon of choice, studying and practicing maneuvers, feints, and tricks to perfection. Competitive duelists train with several types weapons because they may not know ahead of time which types of weapons will be used in a duel. Battlefield duelists expand their abilities to take on small groups because they cannot depend on the luxury of fighting a single opponent in the middle of a skirmish." --KotORCG
Power: This part mostly focuses on the overall hype of the Order's power and strength. I understand Lucas has labeled the Prequel Trilogy as the "prime of the Jedi," but people must understand other facts alongside that. Note how George Lucas doesn't consider the EU canonical, and therefore would not take it into account when doing such a quote. If you listen to the context of the quote, he is specifically comparing the Prequel Trilogy to that of the Original Trilogy. He is not however comparing the Prequel Trilogy to all of the different eras of Star Wars that had powerful Jedi in them. Eras like Knights of the Old Republic or The Old Republic have been entirely war based, it is basically impossible for the Prequel Trilogy to be up with them as fast as Episode 1 where the only notable wars the Jedi have fought in before then was the Stark Hyperspace War. And honestly, that quote is hilariously outdated (I believe said in 1998). In the time since then, entire eras of Jedi have been formed, all of which are fighting far more brutal and skilled opponents then that of battledroids: KotOR, TOR, LotF, and Legacy. As anticipated, new sources have seemingly retconed those ideas. Multiple sources state that the Jedi Order during Revan's time was the combat prime of the Jedi, which also makes the most logical sense given all the opponents they are constantly fighting. Suggesting the normal Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy being more powerful is simply illogical. Revan's era needs superior Jedi in order to fight a superior fighting force. Below are merely a handful of quotes praising the Knights of the Old Republic era:
"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence... Knights of the Old Republic campaigns take place against a backdrop that captures everything that makes Star Wars unique. Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes." --KotORCG
The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG
"Long before the Galactic Civil War, an epic drama begins. Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi." --KotOR
Summary: Greater experience, skill, and power of the Knights of the Old Republic Jedi grants them an overall edge over the Prequel Trilogy Jedi. The Jedi of the Clone Wars simply don't have what is needed to go up against warriors who's life revolves around warfare. I don't see how it is possible an average Jedi Knight of the Clone Wars can come out on top more then vice-versa with these factors. Training to combat battledroids is not comparable to Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. Thank you for reading - May the Force be with you.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Yet Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were able to hold their own and fight against Darth Maul, a Sith which haven't been around for a long time.
I don't see how war experience matters, when Jedi of the PT were able to still fight Sith even without constantly doing so. Yeah the Kotor Jedi have war experience, which is all fine and dandy, but you're saying the PT Jedi can't contend just because they haven't fought against other Sith.
More to that even the PT Jedi were slaughtering Mandos easy as of when a band of Jedi encountered Jango Fett and his Mandos. All of them but him died during that.
So again...I don't see how there's much a difference when the PT Jedi were shown as being able to fight Sith and Mandos. Sure the Kotor Jedi have more war experience, but that's to be expected.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on May 24th, 2015 at 06:03 PM
I'd have no problem with the idea, if it weren't for the fact that the KOTOR high tiers would get the shit stomped out of them by the PT high tiers. It'd be odd to have that much disparity if KOTOR was better on an average basis, tbh.
Also the PT Jedi did go through the Jedi trials which of the skill part, would include either outlasting the Jedi Battlemaster that could span hours in a dueling session, fighting multiple opponents and even a training holoprojection of fighting against past Sith Lords, such as Darth Ruin, Lord Kaan or any other.
So let's not go there that the PT Jedi don't have experience in fighting against Sith Lords or having extensive lightsaber fighting. They maybe just training, but even still it helps prepare them for the actual thing.
They are also trained through all the various lightsaber forms, perhaps not mastering but they know the techniques, but Padawans are expected to master at least one form. You also have the Guardians practicing every single day training when they aren't off doing missions or whatever.
Among other things.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on May 24th, 2015 at 06:50 PM
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
I think war experience matters, but isn't absolute, because even outside war there's combat missions and even smaller war-esque conflicts (like the Yinchorri uprising), and there's still training in the factor. The main difference seems to be, while a peacetime order will still have strong Jedi, there's a tendency for there to be fewer strong ones as the most badass ones will go around and handle all the worst conflicts (we're told Eeth Koth and Sharad Hett did this, you can be sure Windu did too, etc.), causing most Jedi to get less combat experience.
Early PT, due to a lack of war, there were a lot of weaker Jedi. When the Clone War happened, things tightened up, and some of the weaker ones died, others got stronger, and many of the stronger Jedi polished their skills significantly. The Jedi Council by the end of the Clone Wars would roll over the one from ten years before, even though pre-war Windu would still beat almost everyone on the late-war Council, and some of the already-experienced figures like Yoda and Plo Koon and Koth didn't change in level at all.
Or to put it another way, 'it's easier to find weak Jedi in peacetime, but as long as the training and knowledge of the force is good, you'll almost always be able to find strong Jedi too.'
Take ten random Jedi from each era, *especially* pre/early CW, against each other, and I'd bet on the KotoR. End of CW, then it's much more of a wash. And the PT order's *size* and number of trained people gave it a very deep talent pool, so when they got their experience, an impressive number rose fairly high.
Yea, he was badass
I do wanna mention that that's from, like, a 60 year span or so.
Traya was likely alive during the time of Exar Kun, but she might've been, oh, 18 or so when he hit.
Revan didn't exist during Ulic's lifespan.
So, it's not *quite* fair to mash those all up. The order underwent significant reforms as a result of the Exar Kun war, and due to time had almost everyone replaced with successors.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
The version of the Jedi that Ant is using for comparison is itself stretching from the Great Sith War to the Dark Wars, as that is what the sources he uses here state. Thus all characters throughout that half century period are valid characters for discussion.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
I'd say the top-tier Jedi of the PT Jedi Order would definitely outmatch the top tiers of the KotOR era Jedi, but the average KotOR Jedi is probably better than the average PT Jedi.
Those beings mostly reached their prime after experiencing the dark side. As Jedi, they weren't as impressive as Dooku (as a Jedi), Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, etc. And of course, there's Yoda.
For your second list, they're impressive, but not as good as the likes of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, etc. Then the likes of Ki-Adi Mundi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Quinlan Vos are still better than them by some margin (saber-wise, at least0.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
I think novel Revan is nearly Yoda tier and that they trade inferior lightsaber skill with better over-all Force showings.
I think the OSW Jedi definitely have a Force advantage against the list you mentioned but again are likely inferior somewhat in lightsaber combat.
This I can't agree with, they are still all to master duelists with impressive Force feats to back it up with. Consider that Master Kavar was a top master duelist but is not considered as good as Vrook Lamar, Zez-Kai Ell, Atris or Lonna Vash. He is on the other hand stated to be a very potent Jedi Master with the Force.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
1. Revan doesn't have better Force showings than Yoda, and he'd be defeated quite decisively in sabers.
2. Not really, when it comes to sabers. Force is a mixed bag.
3. Not sure about Kavar not being on par with Lonna Vash, but otherwise, despite his accolades and form mastery, his feats are far and few between to land him above the Jedi I mentioned.
I'm aware of all those Jedi's feats/accolades, by the way. They're powerful in their own right but haven't shown enough for me to place them above the Jedi I mentioned.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
1.Revan is nearly his equal in Force prowess, between the rest we have a complicated story.
2.They are mostly master duelists themselves, especially the likes of Vodo. In the Force the OSW Jedi take it by a fair margin.
3.Yet they have greater experience, have statements calling them master duelists/Force users and are themselves Jedi Masters, among the greatest in the Jedi Order.
I think it's a far closer affair than many do.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
1. In mastery, yes. In sheer power, not so much. He's close, but not necessarily a near-equal.
2. I know. "Master duelist" is quite a commn accolade, though.
3. So what? As if the Jedi I mentioned lack such accolades? More importantly, they have a number of concrete feats to support their positioning, whereas most KotOR Jedi rely on a combination of accolades/hype and what limited (though usually impressive) feats they have to infer a position.
Below are additional sources that support my statements above, along with extra material added for some toppings: 
And honestly, that quote is hilariously outdated (I believe said in 1998). In the time since then, entire eras of Jedi have been formed, all of which are fighting far more brutal and skilled opponents then that of battledroids: KotOR, TOR, LotF, and Legacy. As anticipated, new sources have seemingly retconed those ideas. Multiple sources state that the Jedi Order during Revan's time was the combat prime of the Jedi, which also makes the most logical sense given all the opponents they are constantly fighting. Suggesting the normal Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy being more powerful is simply illogical. Revan's era needs superior Jedi in order to fight a superior fighting force. Below are merely a handful of quotes praising the Knights of the Old Republic era:
May 24th, 2015 05:28 PM
