Of course dude. Not really sure what the uproar is all about though.
Spiderman is stronger and faster than Wolverine and I don't think anyone ever contested that.
Strength just happens to be almost worthless against Logan's defenses and his speed isn't on a completely different level as the end of that comic suggests anyways.
And yes, Spock had his spider sense go off, noted the danger, where it was coming from, and even had time to talk trash about embarrassing Logan again before he was caught. So he wasn't exactly caught off guard. And, if he was loads faster than Wolverine, he'd get out of Logan's attempts to restrain him... but he tried to talk his way out so it's likely he can't.
The fight itself. Meh... It's only impressive in that he temporarily puts Wolverine down (which is PIS). Not that the performance is bad by any means but I think that the fight can pretty much be summed up to Wolverine being caught off guard by a cheap shot and then surprised by Spidey's ferocity while apparently holding back.
Srank isn't wrong. Again, if Wolverine was looking to kill or maim Spock would have lost an arm in that chokeslam.
I really fail to see what the fight proves that we didn't already know, other then Spidey apparently has the strength to KO Logan, which we ALSO know isn't true. So yay PIS?
That said, someone pointed out earlier that someone else using Spidey's body against a holding back Logan doesn't prove much of anything.
It certainly doesn't prove more than their previous fights and scuffles but I'm sure Spidey fans would disagree.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Realistically how much of an advantage is Spider-man's strength anyway? Spider-man falls in the 10 - 20 ton range, while Wolverine is in the 2 - 5 ton range. That would afford Spider-man a pretty sizable strength advantage in a lifting contest... but what does it get him in a fight?
Strength amounts to next to nothing when determining the force of a punch relative to skill and technique. Anyone think a body builder can go shot to shot with Anderson Silva? Not bloody likely. It's documented that GSP punches with a 1000lbs more force than the Big Show does, and obviously there is a pretty significant size and strength disparity between those two. Wolverine has an immeasurable skill advantage over Spider-man, he knows how to throw a punch with maximum efficiency. If the two of them are going shot for shot, the simple and indisputable reality of the situation is that when accounting for the skill difference (and the fact that Wolverine's body mass is more than twice Spider-man's thanks to his Adamantium skeleton) Wolverine is going to be the harder hitting of the two. Significantly.
So if Spider-man's strength advantage doesn't aid him in a melee confrontation where does it help him? Grappling? Surely Spider-man could use his strength advantage to try and maintain a dominate position and control Wolverine in a wrestling match? After all he is something like 4-5 times stronger than Wolverine is. Well, ask Dan Severn how much use his colossal size and strength advantage was when he fought Royce Gracie. Again it comes down to skill, and Spider-man doesn't have the skills to go to the mat with Wolverine, and not get subbed or choked out. Again, the strength advantage alone simply isn't enough to counter the skill gap.
Anything remotely resembling a melee confrontation between Spider-man and Wolverine will end with Wolverine winning, 10/10.
This thread should have been closed years ago when Hammerhead's Adamantium fists stomped a Spider-man into a mudhole. Lucky for Petey Logan always treats him with kid gloves.
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First of all, I favor Wolverine over Spiderman, especially in a no-holds barred fight to the death, but hold the phuck on.
Firstly, where the hell did you get these figures for GSP punching with 1000 lbs more force than Big Show does? If GSP could punch with 1000 lbs of force to BEGIN WITH that would be impressive, seeing as most Heavyweight boxers punch with a force LESS than that. But to claim he punches with 1000 lbs more force than Big Show, who is not exactly slow, at least upper body wise, is well, wtf? You'd be implying the dude is breaching fictional Ivan Drago levels, and no one believes that garbage, GSP is not a devastator with his punches. (If you took this shit from sports science at least, shoot yourself. Now.)
Secondly, the rest of this is is bunch of misconceived, tired old platitudes. Strength does NOT 'amount to next to nothing' when determining the force of a punch vs technique. Lol. Firstly, you're comparing Anderson Silva to body builders, who are in a sport where they inflate themselves simply for hypertrophy's sake. Their actual strength is less than what their physique would imply. Power Lifters on the other hand? Well, we know that power-lifting has a direct and positive influence on speed. Granted, you'd be giving up on technique/form and general know-how for them in the Anderson Silva example if it was some random powerlifter with no experience, but the issue with this aged, misconceived argument is that it only applies when the disparity is not too big, E.G. at the human level.
If you didn't understand this before, do so now; Speed comes from Strength. The same muscle fibers that give you the most force in lifting, provide the most force in you attempting to run fast. If you are proportionately strong, you are going to be fast as well. It's actually pretty obvious that this is the case. If you can handle a lot of weight for your size, handling your own body weight is going to be less of an issue. Square-Cube Law directly addresses that as well; why do larger animals move so slow? Because they are proportionately weak, and thus they cannot move their body very fast.
Bruce Lee, no matter how much 'technique' he had, is never going to punch with more force than a tiger could swat with its paws. Simple enough. The tiger is immensely stronger, both proportionately and absolutely, and thus immensely faster as well, thus it hits much harder.
Force is Force. Lifting is done so through force, as is punching. If you can bench press 1 million tons at a decent speed, its obvious that you are going to punch hard as phuck. Far more than any shitty ass martial artist, even if your technique is terrible.
Now back to the main point about the effect of Spiderman's strength vs Wolverine's as far as punching goes. Spiderman's strength advantage over Wolverine goes FAR beyond the human range gap, where 'technique' and 'form' still play a vital role in the physiques of force production. In fact, the strength difference by feats is at least comparable to the above example of a man vs a tiger.
Yes, Spiderman should punch immensely harder than Wolverine. He's much stronger for his weight, and thus much faster(I know by actual feats he is not, as I just said that, but realistically speaking, he should be, since this is what you were attempting to debate; realism), thus he has to punch much harder. The strength gap between them is much greater than the technique gap between their basic punches.
This does not matter of course in the end on who should win, but you misinterpreting the implications of their strength gap should not go undiscussed.
Last edited by CosmicComet on Jan 19th, 2013 at 06:06 AM
GSP isn't a knock out artist in the ring, but that is because of his style not his lack of ability. He is always moving, cutting angles, staying on the outside with his jabs and rarely plants his feat and throws bombs. In a test he can plant his feat and throw leather like he means it, something he doesn't do often in the octagon. I don't remember where the test was from but it had GSP's punch at like 2800 or there around. That being said Ivan Drago's punch had a PSI of 2150. That's not even remotely the same figure we are dealing with from GSP. GSP's stat is the total force of his punch Drago's was the force per square inch... equalized Drago's punch would have been close something like 9000lbs.
I didn't say "strength amounts to next to nothing," I said "strength amounts to next to nothing... relative to skill and technique," the important part being the "relative to skill and technique," part.
Let's look at weight lifting and how it relates to speed. Sure weight training increases fast twitch muscle fiber which is beneficial, but we aren't talking about weight training, we are talking about "power lifting." At the level we are referring too any net speed increase gained from the lifting is completely overshadowed by the muscle mass needed to lift the weight. If you step into any boxing gym the trainer will tell you that power lifting is counter productive to what you want to achieve. You want to increase your hand speed? A boxing trainer will send you to the double-end bag and the speed bag, and make you jump rope and shadow box. He isn't going to send you to the gym to bench press your 1rm. Weight lifting is fine, and certainly of benefit to a boxer (particularly squats) but high weight, low rep power lifting to build strength and add mass is a bad idea.
I don't know shit about Tigers or Lions (fighting about animals was Dumb Dumb thing), but a quick google search tells me the swing their paws with the force of 500-600lbs. Is that accurate? Hell if I know, it's from dubious internet "animal experts," but that isn't particularly powerful... in fact its down right impotent compared to the force that some fighters can generate. Then again it's not the force of the Tiger's paws that do the damage it's claws... and the mouth is no picnic either. Skill my friend. Trained fighters know how to use their entire bodies to get their full body into their punches, a tiger does not. /shrug
Force is not force. There are many different kinds of force. Power lifting and punching are not remotely the same thing. Power lifting is a pushing action. If you stand in front of someone and punch them from your shoulder... well it's not going to do shit no matter how much you can bench. The power from a punch primarily comes from the legs and the hips, and it's the skill if knowing how to string the entire thing together that makes a power puncher. How strong you are is largely irrelevant.
Spider-man's strength advantage does not go "goes FAR beyond the human range gap." Spider-man is in between class 10 - 20. Wolverine is in between class 2 - 5. I guess if we look at Wolverine at his very weakest and Spider-man at his absolute peak there would be a 10x difference in the strength of the two characters, but that be about as accurate as looking at Wolverine at his absolute strongest and Spider-man at his weakest when there would only be a 2x difference between the two. Spider-man is around 4 - 5 stronger than Wolverine, which isn't outside to realm of a "human range gap." You know what would happen if the man with the leg press record let a 100lbs female BJJ sink in a knee bar? He'd tap out or his leg would get broken. The strength difference between Spider-man and Wolverine is not so great that it is insurmountable, even in the real world where fighting skill is much more reasonable then it is in comics.
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Anywho, Cosmic Comet, I just wanted to address one thing and that's that the skill in which is used in comics allows for vast chi manipulation and crazy pressure points that affect people with "invulnerability" as part of their power set. So as far as "their strength gap being greater than the technique gap between their punches" thing... I'm not sure that that's true. We've seen Wolverine strike someone with a rock solid exterior like the Thing and it was with a pressure point touch that caused the character to be completely obliterated. We haven't seen anything even REMOTELY on par from Spiderman which is why it's a big deal that he can apparently punch Scorpion's jaw off as it is.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Average Spidey is 10-20 tons. Average Logan is 2-5 tons
Spidey at his peak is probably 100 tons or more (he has many feats in that territory). So Spidey at his peak vs. Logan at his weakest would make Spidey 50x stronger.
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I don't know why some of you are going on about being right and winning. Rob and Impediment were in on this gag because I PMed them. Silent and Rao PMed me and figured I changed the post. I highly doubt anybody thought Quan made the post, but simply played along just for the lulz.
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Jan 19th, 2013 01:53 AM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
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