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KJ
Sausages
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
Yerrsot how could you lose ROTJ?  You should keep in it a safe! 
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Sep 11th, 2001 08:37 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Tommorow I go to a friend to pick it up, then I'll see it again and again 
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Sep 11th, 2001 08:39 PM |
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KJ
Sausages
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Scotland |
Paint the box red and get a bleeper to put on it.
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Sep 11th, 2001 08:56 PM |
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Jameous Woodshire
Senior Member
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: USA |
Queeg to the rescue!
Finnaly someone understands my point of view!
LOL!
(moment of silence for the WTCand Pentgon).
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Sep 12th, 2001 04:18 AM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
 Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
I don;t see why queeq has to make this extended extrapolation when my explanation is much simpler. With his way, he has to make up an entire sub reason about why you can not be seen to disappear yet still be a ghost (which contradicts Vader's lack of knowledge about this phenomenon).
I find it a very odd point of view.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Sep 12th, 2001 10:30 AM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Remember that everyone has an own point of view
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Sep 12th, 2001 12:35 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
 Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
I'm not saying that Vader wasn't surprised, he definately was. We don't know however if the concept of Jedi ghosts was entirely unknown. What was unknown to Vader in ANH at least, that Jedi could disappear at death. When QGJ appears in Ep2, the ghostsness does NOT depend upon whether you disappear at death or not.
So we don't know if Anakin was unaware of Jedi returning at ghosts. We do know that he was unaware of Jedi being able to disappear at death. Was causes the disappearance is what will be told in the next two episodes and also how that relates to burning or disappearing.
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Sep 15th, 2001 11:39 AM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK Co-Admin |
But Obi-Wan tells Vader that he woulkd become more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine. Surely this is a reference to the ghost form? Furthermore, Vader's entire langauge- e.g. 'Obi-Wan cannot help him now'- clearly shows that he is unaware of the ghost concept.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Sep 15th, 2001 12:11 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Queeq, I know some from making movies, so if Lian Neeson didn't play in Ep2, he isn't a ghost.
They do that with a technique (forgot that but have it in a book) something like blue-screen matting and stuff. That's how they did that for OB1; Yoda and Annakin, but also for the hologram of Darth Sidious in Ep I.
So I think that Neeson is a neccesaty for the making of a ghost.
This makes that there is a link between not disappearing and being a ghost.
BTW: if QGJ DID disappear, why should Annakin be surprised about that in ANH? AND OB1 and Annakin will be the major characters in AOTC so, one would tell the other about it
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Sep 15th, 2001 02:20 PM |
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Jameous Woodshire
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: USA |
I think Obi is talking about how he strenghtens Luke like Oui does for Obi in TPM. That's part of what he was doing when he was meditating.
That's why he's in Lukes head right away. Qui boosted Obi, just not near as much or die as soon, so that's why we didn't hear Qui later.
But the above theory has nothing to do with being a ghost, just part of the strenghting thing. I think the dissapearing trick was another trick Obi does at the same time.
And I havent heard about Qui appearing in AOTC, but just because they didn't shoot Liam for EP2 dosn't mean they didn't already get the footage back in 98.  It would be too easy to shoot a short scene in a Green room.
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Sep 17th, 2001 08:45 AM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
That's of course one possibility, JW. But they also had some additional shoots in London a few weeks ago. Would have been a piece of cake to have Neeson dropping by for an afternoon. So that's still one of the mysteries that will be resolved in time.
And Ush, I'm still not so sure if the "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" refers to Vader's knowledge of Jedi ghosts. It seems like a remark that is to unsettle Vader a bit, with info unknown to him.
Also, the "Obi Wan can no longer help him" may only refer to his death, not necessarily to his ghostlike appearance. After all, we don't know when Vader found out about Skywalker's identity as the detroyer of the DS. If Vader had known for quite a while we may assume that the Emperor had know about it already as well. Unless Vader was keeping it a secret for his alternative plot of him and Luke ruling the galaxy. Yet, IF (and this is speculation, just like your assessment there) Luke's identity was only discovered recently ("... and I'm sure Skywalker is with them.") and the Emperor found out through meditation, then the line "Obi-Wan can no longer help him" could only refer to his death in ANH. That Vader put one and one together, that Luke was trained by OB1. But now the danger "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi" is out of the way since the last Jedi Master was killed by the Dark Lord himself on the DS.
So there are other ways of looking at that, Ush.
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Sep 17th, 2001 10:03 AM |
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finti
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
he still belived Obi Wan trained him in ROTJ, " Obi Wan has thought yo well
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Sep 17th, 2001 11:21 AM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
Yes he did. But what does that mean? If he doesn't know about ghosts why would he think OB1 was still teaching him. And if he DID know about the ghosts, he might also know that they can't do real teaching, which I assume, why else would OB1's ghost send Luke to Yoda. So IMHO that doesn't mean anything, just that OB1 taught him certain principles that he controlled better in ROTJ when compared to the Bespin fight.
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Last edited by queeq on Sep 17th, 2001 at 11:41 AM
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Sep 17th, 2001 11:31 AM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
They don't know about Yoda, otherwhise there doing missions to kill him. OB1 is unknown to them, otherwhise they would do the same thing. When Vader saw OB1 and he saw Luke with a lightsabre, he would automaticaly think that OB1 trained him because they believe there are no Jedis left, and Vader killed OB1 so go figure.
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Sep 17th, 2001 03:02 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
Exactly. So?
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Sep 17th, 2001 03:15 PM |
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darthyogi
Bothan Spy
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Wales |
Isn't this tied in with notions of the living and unifying force? QGJ clearly advocates the living force, which would suggest that his power is tied to his physical being, while OBI and Yoda both spoke of a more spiritual / cosmic unifying force, which would provide them with a haven after death.
Or is that just stupid? 
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Sep 17th, 2001 03:37 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
Nothing is stupid.
But what I think is that it is still the same Force, just in a other form. So it's not good, I guess.
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Sep 17th, 2001 03:52 PM |
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darthyogi
Bothan Spy
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Wales |
Hmm... you're right, but maybe there's some higher order of Jedi that cannot be assigned by the council and has to be sanctioned by the 'will' of the force itself? Wasn't the force originally called the 'wills', too - or was that a book or something about the force? Maybe the Jedi order and its hierarchy of Padawans, initiates, advocates and masters is extended by the will of the force? This would be like the force itself extending the individual (jedi) into the cosmic order - kind of like elevation to heaven, perhaps?
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Sep 17th, 2001 04:13 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Gender: Unspecified
Location: |
How the Force was called before the movie was made, doesn't do a thing.
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Sep 17th, 2001 05:02 PM |
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queeq
Chaos
Gender: Unspecified
Location: JP's bed Moderator |
It wasn't "wills", it was "whills", from Journal of the Whills. I still don't know what they are or what they were supposed to be.
And it might be something like that, however, only the concept of the Living Force is canon so far, the Unifying Force is not. We don't know if that is a contradiction. In Christianity they speak also of the Living God, and there is no such thing as the term "Unifying God". Maybe it refers to that kind of tradition. Anyway, I'll leave this to Ush, he'd love to trash that concept.
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Sep 17th, 2001 06:22 PM |
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