But think about it queeq. Lucas says that the Dark Side and therefore the Sith are an imbalance to the force. So naturally destroying them would according to Lucas bring balance back to the force. But think about how things were in Revenge of the Sith. Let's say that Anakin hadn't turned and he or Mace found a way to kill Palpatine in his office once and for all ending the threat of the Sith. Would balance have been restored? According to Lucas yes, but let's look at the situation. The Republic is massively corrupt and the Jedi are loyal to them in every way. This loyalty to the Republic has caused the Jedi to do horrible things that are against their code. They have become soldiers and generals (when Mace said they weren't soldiers). They agreed to use genetically modified humans as slave labor to fight a war (the clones). They had child soldiers (Ahsoka anybody?). These are highly unethical things if we think about it.
Furthermore, They suppressed any kind of emotion, they were almost like robots. They had grown arrogant. They were the exact opposite of the Sith, whereas the Sith would show hate they could also show love (Plagueis stopping the people he loved from dying). The Jedi didn't show anything, no love, no hate no compassion nothing. What are humans beings without emotion? Are they even humans anymore?
Yoda in Dagoba in all his wisdom discovered that "Wars do not make on great". If Palpatine died in ROTS would that Jedi have learned this lesson.
And by the way this is why I think the new Clone Wars series is so offensive. They turned what was supposed to an order of pacifists into warriors and glorify war. Lucas!!
Now tell me queeq, that after all this, you can continue saying that all it would take for the balance of the force to be restored would be the death of one Sith Lord. Really? Palps dies and everything is ok.
I honestly do not think so. And that is where I believe Lucas is wrong.
And his name doesn't have to be up there, the whole nature of that trope is that its up to the fans to analyze and decide.
Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 10th, 2012 at 08:01 AM
Good post, Charlie... still, what you're saying does kinda support Lucas' view that the dark side creates unbalance.
The clone army and the clone war were all set in motion by the Sith Lord. Obviously the PT Jedi suck because they can't see it happening and they all go along with it, unknowingly that the Sith Lord is manipulating the universe. Everyone starts making unethical choices.
Maybe if Palps had died in ROTS, the War would be over, the clone production would have been stopped and things would have gone back to normal. Not fighting wars was normal for Jedi before the rise of the Sith lord. Remember what Qui-Gon said: "I can only protect you, I will not fight a war for you." That was the situation before the dark times: Jedi protect and defend... they do not fight wars.
The whole concept that Jedi need the Dark Side to be balanced is something Lucas at least strongly rejects. Dark Side is selfish, self centered and focussed on greed and satisfaction... That creates the unbalance... And maybe that was what Lucas was trying to tell: dark side unbalances everything just like it clouds everything...
Even with Yoda's great lesson on Dagobah, nothing really would have happened with him exile...
However, the Sith existed before the Clone Wars. Was the force unbalanced the whole time?? What gives. Lucas says that the existance of the Sith creates imbalance not their actions.
And to blame the Sith for the Jedi's decisions is cheap. Yes the Sith set it up for the Jedi to do these things but in the end it was the Jedi themselves that committed the crimes. Not only this but the OT later shows us that their way of life and philosophy towards life was all wrong. In the end of Rotj it was Vader's compassion towards his son that saved him. And Luke had attachments to his friends and this never caused him to go to the Dark Side. In fact, he proved that Yoda and Ben were wrong about Vader and this is what ultimately destroyed the Sith. In the PT, the Jedi show no hate, but they also show no love.
Dealing in what if's, isn't going to cut it. What if Sidious had died in Rots? Anything could have happened. We don't know.
Except the Sith were powerful in the OT. The Emperor was as powerful as ever. The force should have been imbalanced the whole time, yet we see that it is changing back. Luke has no problem using the force in ROTJ. The Sith are strong in the OT, up untill Vader starts being conflicted and losing his committment to the Dark Side. Then the force starts to shift. Maybe the force corresponds to Anakin. Wait a minute maybe i'm onto something.
Theory of the Force:
The balance of the force corresponds with Anakin Skywalker's position in the force.
Through out the PT, Anakin becomes increasingly closer and closer to the Dark Side. At the same time the Dark Side is becoming more present in the Galaxy. The Jedi can't use the force as well. Plus when Anakin slaughters the Tuskin Village, Yoda feels darkness in the force. Then in ROTS, with Anakin in the Dark, Obi-Wan says the galaxy is in darkness. Later in the OT, when Vader is conflicted and loses committment to the DS we can see it starts to fail the Emperor. If imbalance depends in the existance of the Sith (Palpatine) and it helped Palps all thought out the PT, why is it not working anymore. Is this not an indicator that Anakin was directly responsible for the balance of the force?
That's my theory anyway, and I think it makes way more sense than Lucas. Lucas CAN be wrong about his own work you know.
And queeq, after all this if you still disagree than answer me this.
Why did Obi-Wan claim Anakin left the galaxy 'in darkness'? What had he done right before their encounter at Mustafar? If balance of the force depends solely on the Sith, why would killing a bunch of Jedi do anything??
He left the galaxy in Darkness by becoming a Sith and embracing the Dark Side.
Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 17th, 2012 at 06:58 AM
The Sith might have existed earlier but they were weak. Lucas tends to look at this in cosmic terms- the Dark Side was growing strong in the PT era, but the Light Side was back on its game by the OT time (I think he uses very similar words to that in one of his commentaries; I cannot recall which). The Dark Side tends to destroy itself, of course, so I suspect GL intended to show that it was inevitable that the opportunity to destroy it would come. He also seems to have the idea that the Jedi don't just represent the Light Side- they embody it. Killing them was rather important, and that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke and Leia were around is what meant the Sith had not finished the job. Yes, this does mean that GL is looking at things both cosmically and literally, and if you want to expand on how he tends to confuse the heck out of viewers then by all means go ahead.
Incidentally. whilst of course you are free to come up with whatever alternate interpretation on Star Wars that you like, or how much you like or dislike GL's vision, if it comes to debates about events in the film (which I know this is currently not- this is a just-in-case thing), we have a canon policy here that assumes GL is the Word of God on his own creation. It saves time with people arguing the terms of the argument more than the argument itself.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 17th, 2012 at 10:49 AM
You're overstating his individual power. Anakin assisted in destroying the jedi (i.e. Light Side) and helped the Sith (i.e. Dark Side) to come to power...
And Ush is right, nice to see you again dude.
Lucas explains it like this: Sith are only focussed on personal gain and self satisfaction. Because they are selfish they will always fight each other (hence the rule of two, apprentice takes over master, takes on new apprentice who will then destroy master etc). Lucas's point is: a balanced society is one whether people look after one another selflessly. A society where people are selfish is out of balance and will ultimately destroy itself. So there.
This still doesn't explain the Balance of the Force in OT. In ANH, onwards, the Sith are as powerful as ever. The Emperor is as evil and as powerful as ever. Vader is also very evil at this time. The Sith are alive and well, yet the balance of the force already starts to shift. If the Sith still exist AND are powerful why is it that the balance of the force is changing? Heck by Rotj, the Dark Side all but fails the Emperor.
But the OT shows that more is needed than just emotionless selfless service (that service often being violent) towards others. The big lesson in Rotj is that compassion and caring for others is the key to destroying the Dark Side. You can say one of Anakin's biggest virtues (and flaws) is that he cares deeply for others in a very emotional way. If, the Jedi were indeed right in their ways and all that is required for a balanced society is to be selfless, even if it cuts out all emotion. Then, why would the force create someone with Anakin's character (which completely foils the Jedi at the time) specifically for the purpose of bringing balance to the force?
Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 19th, 2012 at 05:32 AM
I know the Sith had to be destroyed to restore balance.
I just don't think it was solely about doing that in a Lightsaber fight. If it was then it just makes no sense. Why would we need a chosen one when we've already seen Mace Windu win a Lightsaber fight against the Emporer?? Plus there was Yoda who was more powerful than Windu.
So thats why I think destroying the Sith comes down to more than just swinging a lightsaber well enough to cut Sidious down.
Might just be me, but in a world of Star Destroyers and Death Stars that interpretation makes little sense to me.
Well, this ties into us having no real idea what balance or imbalance in the Force actually does, and tied to your point why, for example, the Rebel fleet iis not destroyed by the entire Imperial fleet that was present at Endor, which in turn made it seem that they may as well have just attacked Coruscant from the start, if the rbeels were that strong. And never mind lightsabres- the Emperor would have died anyway when the Death Star blew up.
Which in turn leads to the point that ROTJ was originally episode IX rather than VI and would have had time to build things up, and the rushed and haphazard construction of ROTJ's plotline, and the overall "GL never rally explained anything about the cosmology' issue.
All we know is that imbalance is a bad thing; destroying the Sith removed the problem, and GL said plainly that this was literally a matter of killing the Sith.
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This was my point in that what difference do lightsaber fights really make? Lightsaber fights do seem kind of pointless in the middle of that whole ROTJ battle like you've just pointed out.
That's what makes me think Destroying the Sith did not necessarily have to be in a Lightsaber duel.
End of the day how could Luke even get any where close to Palpatine for a sword fight if Palpatine didn't want to fight him??
On the other hand Luke using his Force powers to be the best pilot on the Rebel fleet(using that to destroy the Death Star for instance) would be much more of a threat imo.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54 PM
I think you'll find the point here is that they kinda forgot the Emperor would have died anyway- in the early ROT drafts, Luke had to go to confront the Emperor on the Imperial homeworld (named Had Abaddon at the time). They moved him to the Death Star later in development and I think they plain forgot abut the consequences of that.
So we get all of this 'the Emperor must be personally confronted' vibe that doesn't seem to make any sense. But that it had to be in person was still the thematic intent.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Hmm. Strange. Just don't see why the Jedi were relying on The Chosen One to do that then, when there was already Yoda and Mace(as per the prequels) who could have done the same job.
Well that's getting into the nature of Prophecy, from essential to guideline to self-fulfilling. But they didn't get into it in the films so we can only speculate.
Fair play to Matrix, they did at least explain their Chosen One prophecy. Though they did it in a way that made a lot of people hate it.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
As yoda said "a prophecy that miss read may of been"
IMO the prophecy means that anakin will bring balance to the force but for himself? cause he was good then went bad and then good again.
We do! It was explained really well.. The Chosen One is he who was born without father, who turns to the dark side and becomes murderous for the next 20+years so he can get so close to the Emporer that he would never suspect a betrayal and attack him off guard the second he turns back to the Light Side, thereby destroying the Sith and Restoring balance to the Force.
I know it would have been much simpler and saved a lot of lives if the chosen one just helped Mace kill the Emporer in the first place, but the ways of the chosen one are beyond mortal understanding.
We have not read the prophecy, all we know what people read into it... The whole murderous bit is not there I think, OB1 said he was to bring balance not leave the universe in darkness... So there we go: we haven't got a clue.
The Jedi use Force for guidance. They follow the will of the Force, therefore they do not distort natural balance. The SIth on the other hand use the Force merely as a tool for their own benefit. They do things against the will of the Force, therefore they distort balance.
The balance in the Force is, when both good and bad beings leave in harmony, some of them are happy, some - suffer but generally there is stability and everyone lives more or less normal life. The darkside, however, makes both good and bad beings suffer. The whole galaxy was suffering because of Palpatine. Darkside is a cancer that makes suffer everyone.
Although balance was restored with death of Palpatin and Vader, there was still darkside luring deep in the galaxy. That is why Luke is there, to maintain the balance and prevent any other darksiders to put galaxy in chaos again.
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Mar 10th, 2012 07:56 AM
