At the end of the manga Alucard gains Quantum Reality Manipulation, which basically means he is essentially immortal, he exists if he believes he does.
However, theoretically a mental attack should work, if one were able to make him believe he no longer existed, he would die. He has never really shown particularly great mental powers.
Also, he still lacks the means to really harm even someone Mercenary Tao level IMO.
Also stuff like Tsukihime concept attacks should work.
If Tohno Shiki or Ryougi Shiki stabbed him in a point of destined death (they have the ability to see death of a being in the form of lines and points), he would die. Ryougi especially would be well-suited, having killed things with no physical existence before.
Yea, if one's talking mere infinite power, then lots of beings have it.
No. Arguing for Tenchi over the Living Tribunal, is nothing short of a display of ignorance.
While true, it's rather easy to prove that they aren't. Apply any of the omnipotence paradoxes.
Furthermore by your line of reasoning, you could declare Goku at the end of Dragon Ball GT omnipotent. But it isn't a consistent argument as it's leaning on the following fallacies: Ad Ignorantiam, Ad Infinitum, and Red Herring.
You misunderstand. I mean that, within the context of the story, he is omnipotent and should be treated as such.
Those don't really apply as a truly omnipotent being would be able to defy logic.
No you couldn't, because he has no feats at the end of GT, no powerscaling, and there's no evidence that absorbing the Dragonballs even did anything to change his powerset. After all, the power of the Dragonballs is known to have quite a few limitations.
Just because he's seemingly unsurpassed in the series doesn't mean he's unsurpassable.
And that's red herring, any outcome which conclusion have illogical steps in-between is inconclusive.
Furthermore the abilities you associate with omnipotence, along with the term itself, hasn't been used to illustrate Kami Tenchi.
Yes, the Chousin labeled themselves as omnipotents, but Kami Tenchi never was.
Kami Tenchi barely have any feats himself, nor do we know anything about him aside from that he's an entity greater than the Chousin. You could further argue that Tenchi as a human was severely limited and that certain events could've gone smoother.
Then we have the instance of Kami Tenchi "almost forgetting" to tell Tenchi that the child he was with before their encounter was safe. Which for his entire 3 minute appearance in the series is a pretty severe flaw.
You're not justifying your case, you're literally arguing for the application of the lack of evidence, which in itself is fallacious.
Last edited by Astner on Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:43 PM
You're right. If some new uber being from an even higher dimension appears that's confirmed to be stronger than Tenchi, then Tenchi can't be treated as omnipotent. Of course, this applies to any supposedly "omnipotent" being in fiction.
Which is the entire point, and one of the reasons why the entire omnipotence debate is pointless and will never get anywhere. Once you accept that a truly omnipotent character would be able to ignore logic, it's impossible to proceed with an argument.
He was the one who created the Chousein and the entire Tenchiverse
Well of course. Human Tenchi is only the avatar of Kami Tenchi who really didn't know how to use his powers for most of the series.
This again? laugh: That's obviously a joke scene/casually making conversation. After all, he was pretty whimsical when we saw him. Taking something like that seriously is just inane.
No, I'm saying that omnipotence debates in general are stupid, as it's impossible to really prove anything or get anywhere with them, because omnipotence as a concept is so estranged from the real world logic and experience of human beings.
Omnipotence is something that is virtually impossible to prove via feats, and should be avoided during a debate like this.
Theoretically, for omnipotence to be proven, you would need an infinite list of feats showing the omnipotent character's ability. Said list would have to contain every conceivable action known to man, and then have things in it that we couldn't even comprehend, meaning that you would need omniscience to even understand the list. Not only that, but no one in existence could ever read the list, because it would be infinite, and nothing in existence could contain all that information.
Basically, it boils down to this; Omnipotence is a claim, nothing more. It is a no-limits fallacy and completely unable to be proven by any means. At best, either you believe the source or you don't.
Which is illconceived logic. By suggesting that there can't be anything above a omnipotent entity you're imposing logical boundaries. The same logical boundaries that are already there, due to the paradoxes mentioned earlier--"Can a omnipotent being create a concept greater than omnipotence?"--is one facet of the paradox. If you insist of excising the logical boundaries you're sacrificing your right to say "Nothing can be greater".
You missed the point. A debate with illogical variables is always inconclusive, because then you've erased the line separating right from wrong. The entire structure of logical reasoning relies on that all variables are logically bounded.
Which literally is equally as great a testament to his omnipotence is, as the ability to destroy planets is to Frieza's. Feats within the framework of logical coherence aren't within reach of illogicalities.
Considering his brief appearance, you're excluding a lot of data overlooking that. The fact that he further operated within the structure of space-time--as time itself is a requisite to commit actions--further puts his power to question. Of course, if there there was evidence of exposition given by the writer confirming that he in fact had the ability to operate outside logic then the situation would be different. But that isn't the case.
What I fail to understand is why you would commit logical fallacies for the exception of omnipotence. Since the only way to prove it is by providing an elaborate explanation given by the author, which I personally haven't come across.
In the end, "omnipotence" has more than one definition and isn't sufficient as proof. Neither is the position of being supreme, nor the position of being the demiurge (the uncaused cause).
Pardon my fanboyism but I still think Hao pretty much has it. Alucard gain virtual omnipresence by making schrodinger his familiar, however he did lose the majority of his power by killing off the millions he previously had.
Hao can soul absorb by just looking at someone if memory serves me right and can create scale models of cosmic events like comets, meteors, supernovas, and blackholes; although not on the power of the actual even they still pack a punch. Courteous of the Great Spirit he's pretty much god.
However its hard to explain the scope of his power due to the fact that he would lose it every other shaman tournament and the Great Spirit in itself has many untouched concepts. I'm being an fanboy but I think Hao pretty much tops the anime/manga power charts.
I personally don't read Shaman King so I wouldn't be able to say for sure. But even though Hao Asakura supposedly control every aspect of reality he does show strain exercising certain feats. Feats that would come easier to Haruhi Suzumiya, for instance. Thus isn't the most powerful.
Alucard is severely overrated in terms of power, and you're right. The source of Alucard's powers are the souls he has consumed and retained within him. In order to exist he had to dispatch of all the souls save for one. While he's closer to immortality he's also far less powerful then he were before.
While spiritual related feats aren't quantifiable--due to their very nature, and varying assessments--astronomical feats are, and aren't on the level of cosmological feats such as: destroying universes.
And there goes my fanboy pride. I thought the model black hole would give Hao something to compete with.But if there are really some universe busters in anime/manga publication I'd love to hear about them.
Come to think of it now, has anyone mentioned Dark Schnider? Personally I barely know about the guy but some other threads I've read say he can give the Beyonder a run for his money; I doubt it but I can be proven wrong can't I?
Well Haruhi Suzumiya from "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" is one that comes to mind, but it isn't an action anime/manga/novel per se. We further have NEO from the manga series "Digimon Next".
Dark Schneider is severely overrated. In his last battle, he supposedly threaten the galaxy. But the manga has it share of grave inconsistencies. But he is of no threat to the Beyonder, not then, not after the retcon and not now.
One of the big ones is from Slayers/Lost Universe, the Lord of Nightmares.
The main character of Slayers, Lina Inverse, is a sorceress, and at one point it's revealed that if her ultimate spell, the Gigaslave, goes out of control, it will destroy the universe, because it calls upon the Lord of Nightmares who created the universe and in fact the universe rises out from an infinite sea of chaos, that sea being the Lord of Nightmares, or L-sama for short.
Lost Universe is another universe inside the LoN with it's own series.
KMC Community Forums
Jun 3rd, 2010 10:05 PM
