Well, thank you for the support. As a gay man, I appreciate anyone with your point of view. And, If you go back through all 100 plus pages, you'll find my arguments since the beginning of the thread. Alpha is the same way. He's been arguing for a while as well. Cheers to both of you.
As for me, I think that's enough for the mutual admiration society. I'm sure the schmaltz police would be on their way, but since this will be my last post for a while, I think they'll allow me this one sentimental expression.
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Sure sure....you said that people act on these feelings and then they're gay! thats wrong!
there are holes in what your saying, yes thats true! and for some time, there is going to be holes, and people like us argueing on whats suppose to fill them!! I dont seem to understand where your coming from, and you dont seem to understand to see where im coming from.... so i think this discussion is over thanks to the wonderful Capt_Fantastic, Alpha Centauri, draco69 .... thanks guys!
Again no. Let me break it down for ya because you're getting into some very tricky stuff of when are people gay? And that's not what I'm saying at all. People who like the same sex, have a CHOICE to act on these feelings or not. They don't have to. They can still have these feelings for the same sex, but do nothing about them. But, it is there CHOICE whether or not to date, get married, etc. It's there choice to act on these feelings.
Get it?
I could say the same for you. It's debatedable on both sides.
If this discussion is over, this thread can be closed. Thanks guys!
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But if people have the feelings in the first place then they are gay already, it doesn't matter if they act on them or not, they are still gay because they have these feelings!!
I meant that, that there are holes in what everyone pretty much says
Why are you even bothering? I admit that spidergurl's arguments are weaker than mine, but for some reason you didn't respond to me. You completely switched parmeters my man. You specifically said that gays "choose homosexuality." Now you do a 180 an say the homosexuals "choose to act on their feelings." Of course they do. Heterosexuals as well. It's called lust. To boink or not to boink. Very simple.
Debate requires sound reasoning based on evidence from both sides. I have evidence. You have none.
I know that, but you're the one that said, that I said that people act on these feelings and then they're gay! thats wrong! I was correcting you because I never said that.
Yep yep! So true. Again, I wasn't turning this into a feelings debate or when people are gay or not. Again, I was correcting her because she said that I said something, that I never did.
Why do I even bother? I guess I can say the same about you. I was not the one who switched gears. Like I explained earlier, I never said anything about people having these feelings for the same sex are not gay, or whatever it was that she was trying to say. I'm been singing the same song, but I'll sing it again. I explained to her that people who are gay have a choice whether to act on those feelings. Very simple.
I realize that you think this is some kind of game that you're gonna earn brownie points, but sorry, you won't be getting the Debater of the Year Award from me. Now as for evidence, what you wrote was support for your opinion, I did the same. Say that I have no evidence, whatever. Say whaterver you want, but you might want to re-read my posts.
This is obviously way off topic if your entire posts is a sad attempt to bash me or whatever. Not necessary, or appreciated. I've stated my opinion, and that is that I think that homsexuality is a choice and not something you are born with. There's no gene, no nothing that certain people are born with. Why gays are born this way, why are some people born with this gay gene and other's not? What is it about gays that is different from others? Different DNA? Different chromosomes? Why are they born with this gay gene and other's aren't?
This is precisly my point. You say that I have holes, well unless you can answer these questions above, than those are holes as well.
Again, let's stick to the topic of this thread and leave our personal feelings about each other out of it. I'm sure you're mature enough to do that.
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It is not acting on these feelings that makes one gay, it is having these feelings in the first place.
There is no single 'gay' gene. Sexuality is a complex trait and there are several DNA regions involved in its expression.
Researchers at the University of Illinois at Chicago recently combed the entire human genome for genetic determinates of homosexuality... and found them on chromosomes 7, 8 and 10.
I bother because I want to educate you. You bother because you want to have the last word. You have stated numerous times that "homosexuality is a choice." You did a 180.
[/QUOTE] "That's the trouble I have with this. It's the being born with it and such. If people are born gay, than they must also be borned murderers, abusers, liers, etc....where do you draw the line? All of these in my opinon are about the choices that we make in life. We practice our free will every single day of our lives. I feel that the same goes for being gay. Regardless of the cons as you said, people still choose this."
"People still choose this." What else does that mean?
[/QUOTE] "Just as the murderer chose to kill people, fully knowing the cons of it, people still choose to be gay."
"People still choose to be gay." From the horse's mouth.
[/B][/QUOTE] "Everyone in this world has Free Will. You choose what jobs you want, you choose who you want to marry, you choose who you want to date. Being gay is no difference. It is the same with straight people."
Need I go on?
What is it with you and the word "brownie points?" To whom? For what reason? For a person with obviously no background in psychology, you certainly aren't the one to be psycho-analyzing. I did this because it's a debate. I'm not trying to prove I'm smarter or whatever twisted ideal you think of me.
Your "evidence" can be summarised as thus " Murderers choose to kill, Liars choose to lie, gays choose to be gay." and "Concept of Free Will." That's not evidence. That's assumptions/bias/opinions supplementing your own opinion. I on the other hand had scientific evidence from numerous sources. No contest.
Bash you? Paranoid lot aren't you? How is disproving your theories of choice "bashing" you. I never called you an idiot or stupid. I simply said your arguements were enormously flawed.
Once again you say "homsexuality is a choice' which disproves the above comments. Choosing to act on homosexual tendacies is a choose. Homosexuality is not. You never differiantiated the two. And you still haven't.
If you read ANY of my arguements, you would know that there ARE genes that preclude that homosexuality is biology. Which obviously you haven't. The next questions you ask are irrevalent:
Why do you ask questions that God only knows? Why do we have two hands? Why is the Earth round? Why are some people black and others white? We don't know. It just happens.
I already answered this:
The Xq28 chromosome is a genetic code. Let's put it these way. There are different types of computer files right? MP3 represents Mpeg Audio Layer 3 for example. The code represents a music file. On the other hand a MP4 would represent Mpeg Layer 4. A movie file. Completely different things. On the genetic strand there are specific genes which are A, B, Y etc. The DNA strand is approximately FOUR BILLION chromosomes long each containing genes. That means there are literally an infinite combination of genes. It can be "ABABAYABYA" or "AYBAYRABY" The potentials are limitless. Specific genetic codes make different things. One code would make someone have brown eyes while another code would make someone have have blue eyes. Different codes make different things. What makes the Xq28 study so intriguing is that they found this genetic code in the same position on the genetic strand for every homosexual they encountered. Heterosexuals however did not display the Xq28 chromosome sequence. Genetic codes are literally blueprints. The genetic codes determine who we are just as architecture blueprints determine the form of a building. The Xq28 chromsomal code was found in homosexuals and not heterosexuals despite location, age, race, and creed. This would suggest that that xq28 genetic code has something to do with the biological predisposition of homosexuality.
Don't ignore this time. Chromosome? Xq28 genes DNA? Different combination and order of genes. Why are some born with this and others not? Simple. Luck. Randomness. Genes are random. A deck of cards.
My holes are dependent on the authenticity of the studies performed. Which won Nobel Prizes. My holes are small. I already answered the questions. You seem to disregard them. Your holes are dependant on your own personal reasoning and bias. That means they are size of Lake Honullu.
Mature enough? Please. For some reason being a moderator had gone to your head. The topic of this forum is "Homosexuality: Choice or Genetic?" You said choice. I said genetic. You provided no evidence (name ONE). I provided a proverbial truckload. The only one with personal feelings in this seems to be you. You put up this "holier than thou" act with a pretention of hurt feelings for no reason but your own. Everybody saw through it. Cap Fan. Alpha. Spider. GLS. Lana. And me.
Maturity means recoginizing one's own mistakes and attempting to reconcile them. You haven't done so. You still sing the same old song that's been knocked out from the ballpark. You refuse to see the flaws in your argument and you nitpick at mine like a mouse to cheese. Recognize the major flaws in your agrument then come back. Bring evidence. Not opinions. You know the drill. The lecture I give will go in one ear and out the other I'm sure. Until then this discussion between you and I is pretty much done. And no, not for "brownie points". Just for the prevailation of good old fashioned common sense.
*sigh* Again, I know this. See my last post. I was responding to someone.
Really, is that why I bother? There you go assuming again. Did I say this why I bother. Don't think so. Therefore, you are incorrect.
Once again, I was responding to sypdergrl about people choosing to act on homosexuality.
You say that the next questions are irrelevant. How so? If you have "evidence" and biology to support your claim that gays are born this way and about some chromosomes and such, why don't you have this same "evidence" and biology to answer why some people are born this way and others aren't.
Makes no sense.
This is my problem with this theory that people are born gay. There suposedly all of this scientific proof that being gay is genetic and they are born this way, but there is just as much proof saying the exact opposite. If being gay is genetic, why is it SO hard to prove?
Examples:
Dr. Elizabeth Moberly, world-renowned psychologist: "No one has yet proven a direct link between genetic and hormonal research and homosexual orientation. There is no evidence for it."
Masters & Johnson, famous sexologists: "The genetic theory of homosexuality has been generally discarded today. No serious scientist today suggests that a simple cause-effect applies."
Dr. R. Kronemeyer, New York psychologist (working among New York's enormous 'gay' population): "With rare exceptions, homosexuality is neither genetic nor the result of some glandular disturbance. Homosexuals are made, not 'born that way'. From my 25 years' experience as a clinical psychologist, I firmly believe that homosexuality is a learned experience and that it can be unlearned."
Dr. Joseph Berger, assistant professor of psychiatry, University of Toronto (working among the largest 'gay' community in Canada): "In my 20 years of psychiatry I have never come across anyone with 'innate homosexuality'."
Scientists, many of them homosexuals, have failed to find a "gay gene" after decades of trying. The well known studies by such scientists as Dean Hamer, Simon LeVay, Bailey & Pillard, have proven to be a dead-end.
Even homosexual activists such as the famous lesbian activist, Camille Paglia, are forced to admit the truth. The brutally honest Paglia admitted: "No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous. Homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait."
That homosexuality is not genetic is indicated by the high ratio of cures. Dr. Kronemeyer gives a rate of 80% of homosexuals cured of their disorder through therapy. Masters & Johnson give 71.6% - much higher than that for alcoholics or drug addicts.
For more evidence, see my re-read my other posts
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The above makes no sense. You bother because I'm assuming why you bother?
Not what you originally said:
You "" my evidence? Nobel prize winning, accepted by nearly the entire psychological community is actually worthy of ""?
Why do ask the same questions I have already answered again and again? :
quote: (post)
Originally posted by RoguePw25 Why gays are born this way, why are some people born with this gay gene and other's not?[B]
Why do you ask questions that God only knows? Why do we have two hands? Why is the Earth round? Why are some people black and others white? We don't know. It just happens.
I'm turning into a proverbial parrot:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by RoguePw25
Like I've been saying all of this time. If gays are truly "born" this way, why is SO hard for people to prove this? There are articles supporting it, articles dis-proving it. Why the back and forth? If there is truly something in our genetic make-up that "forces" a person to be gay, then why can't scientist find it? Shouldn't it be in plain site?
The DNA strand is more than FOUR BILLION chromosomes long. It takes days just to analyze ONE. The scientific method requires full investigation. However with the amass studies performed nearly every scientist is convinced that homosexuality is predetermined.
Get some new material.
You really like to kick yourself in the nuts don't you? Here's a tip. Alter the quote a little. I would make it harder to find. Where is this "evidence" from? THE CONTINUING ANGLICAN COMMUNION IN ZAMBIA. A religous site. Of course they gonna say homosexuality is choice. And sin for that matter. A religous site isn't proof. I can find a Star Wars site that says homosexuality is the divine path to righteouness. ALL the people above have been pounded with lawsuits. Half of them (particularly Dr. Joseph Berger, Dr. Elizabeth Moberly) lost their medical licenses. Why? Because they like to attach electrodes to teenage boys gentials to "treat homosexuality, from the point of view of the patient's resistance, has, of course, been the misconception that the disorder is innate or inborn." Joseph went to JAIL for it. The "evidence" was refuted by the American Psychological Association and countless others. The government has imposed laws on these organizations for "indecent medical practices."
The Anglican Communion of Zambia? They advocate stoning the women for asking for divorce and infidlity. They aren't a reliable source at all.
Good Lord. Find better "evidence" Not people who either lost their licenses for unethical practices, went to jail for torture, or a cult in Zambia that actively applauded the Rwanda genocides.
The above is pretty much it. That and the quote from Dr. Throckmorton. The rest are assumptions/bias ...you know the drill.
Back sooner than I thought I would. But, we have internet accesess from the the beginning here. How great is the liberal ideal on the left coast?
Above and beyond arguments, homosexuality isn't chosen. Who would choose to be so radically different? Let's suppose for one hot minuite that it IS learned behavior: That doesn't change the fact that it is NOT a choice!
The people who want to pretend that it is chosen, are wrong in any regard. If it is a matter of environment, then it is STILL hardley a matter of choice. Rouge is right in one respect; we do CHOOSE to act on our feelings...but, how does that make us any less than the rest of human society? We choose to suck dick. We choose to believe in a god that was created. We choose not to believe in a fictional god. We want to pretend that "must see TV" is...must see.
The genetic evidence is overwhelming...but despite it, we exist. We being "****"...gays...homo's or whatever term you want to apply. In the last three days, I've experienced it on an overwhelming level. Despite the evidence, or lack there of, I have met too many people that prove you are wrong. I don't care what the bible says. I don't care that you do! I exist. Others exist, who don't care what your god says. Or your biology. The fact remains that we aren't new. We aren't going away. And we will no longer be ignored. We are here, the same as you. And despite genetic evidence, genetic cures, and genetic theory, we exist...in the long term. We're in the same fight against reality that you are...or pretend you aren't. And in the long run, despite the fact that you don't want us here, we are. And!...always will be. Just as we always have been.
All I ask is that Rougeblahblahblah addresses me directly. As I said earlier, the most staunch supporter of baby jesus or ignorance will loose their pretense when I'm sitting across the table from them...face to face. Say something to the *** in this conversation. Address your hatred directly. Here I am. What do you have to say?
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KMC Community Forums
Mar 25th, 2005 06:40 PM
You completely switched parmeters my man. You specifically said that gays "choose homosexuality." Now you do a 180 an say the homosexuals "choose to act on their feelings." Of course they do. Heterosexuals as well. It's called lust. To boink or not to boink. Very simple.
Nobel prize winning, accepted by nearly the entire psychological community is actually worthy of ""? 
