I'm well aware of what a web-line can do, and if you look at what I said, I said there's nothing Spidey can make that would act as effectively as a ranged weapon. A web-shield won't work like Cap's shield and a web-club won't work like Daredevil's billy club. The material is so vastly different that I couldn't imagine it working the same way - to make something that dense on the fly, Spidey would have to take some serious time on the side to do so. Web-crafting takes time, if he even has that ability in this match.
Of the three, the only one I could see getting hit with any ease is Daredevil, simply because he has no defense, other than mobility which you say is negated by Spidey's marksmanship, or any way of removing himself from the web-line. Captain America's shield is more than sufficient to block or cut a web-line and at distance, Spidey cannot neutralize Wolverine's use of his claws.
Spider-Man has reflexes 15x faster than that of ordinary humans, not 30, unless you've got a source I haven't seen; in that case, I apologize. He predicts incoming danger by .003 seconds before it happens, whereas, coupled with his reflexes (which may or may not be somewhere between .01 and .05 seconds if you want to throw real life math in) gives him enough time to dodge bullets if sufficiently distanced. You give examples of Spidey against an opponent one-on-one, but what will happen if all three attack from differing directions? He cannot dodge all of it.
I think he can win, but not so easy as standing back 60 feet and letting fly with web-lines.
You also seem to think Spider-Man will leap into the fight's 'arena', say, "I have a plan.", and start using his brain to stay distanced with those web-lines and whatnot... whereas that's never how Spider-Man operates.
Usually.
Most of the time, Peter likes to rely on his powers and simply leap into the fray. Peter himself (recently, mid-to-late 2004, I believe) that his main solution for problems is punching. He won't stop to let himself think until he's been roughed up a bit; that's when he realizes brute force won't work and he'll need to think to snag the win.
Maybe if this was a scheduled fight he would start with a plan, but since this is a random fight, my money is on Spidey being careless until he starts losing badly, and with these guys, giving an inch isn't something he can afford.
Good points, however, none of what you stated above in anyway
demonstrates that the "weblines" would NOT be more effective long range weapons than the shield or billy club. Other than throwing their weapons at SM, what other offensive attacks can Cap/DD utilize them for?
Answer: None
And how many times can Cap or DD throw a shield or billy club at SM?
Answer: One
Now answer these questions..
How many different types of offensive attacks can SM create with the weblines?
Answer: Several
And how many times can SM shoot a webline at any of the Trio?
Answer: many many times..
Based on the answers given above, which long range weapon would you assume to be more effective? Would it be the weapon that can be used only one time in one particular way? Or would it be the weapon that can be used many times, and has many different uses?
I'm sure Captain A can block the web with his shield a few times, But he's not fast enough to dodge each and every line shot at him. You also forget to consider that nothing is keeping SM from snagging the shield itself with a webline, leaving the good Captain Defenseless.
Wolverine has demonstrated the ability to cut the webbing, if he has sufficient leverage to do so, however, he has proven to be easily webbed up as quickly as any low level street thug, when SM is fighting at his best.
And as you mentioned above, DD would have no defense against the webbing, and more often than not would be subdued very quickly by it.
He states in an anniversary issue that his reflexes are rougly 30-40 times faster, Marvel hand books say 15..I believe a nice middle ground would be around 20..still even 15 times faster is much..much faster than Cap/DD or Wolvie could ever hope to accomplish with defined abilities.
I have no idea where you received the .003 number, however, I do know that the wallcrawler has demonstrated on innumerable occassions the ability to outmaneuver multiple things/people coming at him much faster than any of the Trio with relative ease. Pick up any SM comic, and you'll see him dodging 30 bullets, while being swung at by 50 armed thugs, as well as having 30 pumpkin bombs thrown at him, etc, etc. To believe that the Trio are any more capable of of hitting him than any of his normal foes is a very illogical pov, and is not based more on assumption, than "historical" information taken from the comics.
This is Your opinion, however, you haven't given much evidence to validate why this is not possible.
__________________ If knowledge is power..how come we have so many idiots in charge?!!
Not true. He generally proves himself very tactical/difficult opponent when fighting in situation involving overwhelming odds, as opposed to fighting the common street thugs or second tier opponents. Again..if you look at his history, you will see that there are many examples which support this notion(ie firelord, juggernaut, Hulk, Fantastic Four, Sinister Six, etc)
History has proven Spiderman to be greatly accomplished when facing "overwhelming circumstances", and he is usually successful in pulling a win in these types of situations. I believe this scenario against the Trio would qualify as an "overwhelming odds" one. The Trio definately have a good chance of winning..but then again..so does SM.
__________________ If knowledge is power..how come we have so many idiots in charge?!!
In all actuality, only virtually once. Both Cap and Daredevil, especially Cap, have demonstrated their ability to toss their weapons and bounce them back into their hands. Cap himself has chucked his shield, bounced it off of a person's face, and reacquired it in mid-air.
It's also not as easy as all that for Spidey to snag an object and sling it at an opponent nor for him to snag someone and wing them in a direction, especially if he has multiple enemies coming at him. If he, for instance, snags DD and tries to wing him, he'll most likely get three claws in his back or smacked in the head by a flying discus. If he does dodge, his focus has been suitably broken.
Note, just because a certain weapon is more versatile does not necessarily make it more effective. In this case it may be so, but you make it sound obvious.
I didn't forget this, which is why I also mentioned that it's possible for him to cut the web-line. Not to mention, is it also not possible that if Spider-Man snags the line, Cap can direct the shield's focus so that if Spidey rips it backwards or to either side, it sails right into his face? Not necessarily an infallible strategy, but food for thought nonetheless. Steve, afterall, is a tactical genius.
Spider-Man would have to be closer than 'at range' in order to effectively web him up. At distance, his web-lines are just that - lines - and he would thus be limited to snagging a limb or so. Wolverine has the speed and reflexes to respond accordingly.
The number comes from Marvel Directory, which states that his spider-sense gives him 'several hundredths of a second's warning', which would equate to .003 seconds or later. Not the best source in the world, but it's the only number I've ever seen given and it does seem to make sense.
He can't dodge 50 swinging thugs, 30 bullets from differing directions, and 30 pumpkin bombs from 30 directions at the same time. He can be overwhelmed and he can be caught. Even if he could dodge all three at the same time, he'd only have but perhaps one direction to go, and Captain America can capitalize on that.
I've only seen Spider-Man make up a truly devastatingly brilliant plan of action when he's gotten beat up and thus has personally seen what he's up against or when he's been suitably warned beforehand. Otherwise, he jumps in hoping he's just enough as is. He usually is, but otherwise, he needs to run away and collect himself first. He won't stop to let himself think first - Peter isn't a soldier and he has powers to let himself get comfortable, unlike Batman for example, who doesn't have that luxury and thus must be always prepared.
The hero winning out against "overwhelming circumstances" doesn't sound like a Spider-Man specific trait to me. In fact, it sounds like the trait many, many heroes possess. Deus Ex Machina, in which the hero pulls out a miracle from nowhere and emerges victorious in the end.
Nice, though. You make me feel as if I'll jam my foot and trip/fall in this marathon race.
I have seen very few instances of the shield or billy club returning to Captain America After he has thrown it. You must be thinking of Thors hammer, or the absorbing man's ball and chain.
Anyway..regardless of whether this feat is factual or not, you still have neglected to take into account likelyhood of SM being able to dodge either of these weapons rather easily, based on his speed, maneuverability, and agilty, and his known ability to have dodged much faster objects being thrown at him at once. Can the shield or billy club be thrown faster then 10 rounds of ammo being fired at the wallcrawler from multiple directions? Can they be dispatched faster than symbiotic darts/axes/ and knives fired out of the body of Carnage? I don't think so.
You also seem to assume that one hit from the shield or billy club will effictively take down SM...keep in mind..this is the same SM who has survived blows from the likes of Hulk, Thor, pumpkin bombs, Titania, and countless others. And one thwack from a billy club or a shield is going to take him down? Again..I don't think so..
*note this is of course assuming it is easily capable for Cap or DD to hit him with either of these weapons...but its very doubtful that SM will just be standing their waiting for them to hit him..
Why does he immediately need to snag each opponent upon dodging an attack? As I have asked multiple times..what factors preclude him from immediately distancing himself say..a hundred feet from the Trio, and then firing off a webline after moving out of harms way? He's capable of jumping roughly 3 stories in the air in a single bound..and it would take significant time for any of the Trio to reach him for an attack at this distance.
Well versatility does have a lot to do with effectiveness, particularly in this case, when we're specifically talking about each weapons "long range effectiveness"
Spiderman's webline can be used as a much more versatile weapon and is used much more effectively from a distance than DD's club or Captain America's shield. This has been proven consistently by many examples throughout this thread.
Uhh..Spider sense..and super speed...again are we negating SM being able to use his known abilities? How can Captain pull of such a tactic from a "distance" if SM can immediately sense the danger of the oncoming attack? Again common sense must be applied..SM is definately more than capable of sensing any attack used against him, and has enough speed to dodge most attacks before the make contact, especially those attacks administered against him from a good distance away.
There's nothing really historical/stat wise to support these claims. He's unloaded webs on a savage hulk, spider slayer, and many others from quite a distance many times, completely covering their entire bodies.
But even if he were just limited to snagging a limb with a webline..that would be more than enough of a body part to sufficiently get an opponent off balance and chuck them several hundred feet away..
Okay..I just wasn't sure about the number..seeing as how I have never seen it in any of the volumes that I used to possess.
I was being a bit sarcastic with the examples given above, however, he has proven to dodge many, many people/things at the same time. That are much faster than the Trio. Are bullets slower than cap/dd/wolvies fists? Are the knives darts and axes thrown from Carnages body slower than a shield or billy club being thrown at him? I don't think so..SM can be hit, but in an "all out battle" I doubt the Trio possess the "abilities" to be able to hit him if he is indeed fighting at his "best"(note* best meaning that he does not ignore his spider sense, and constantly reacts to it, is fighting at top speed, top agility, etc, etc)
Not necessarily, I've seen him think quite quickly on the fly multiple times. He may not be batman or Captain America, however, he's definately more than capable of coming up with a plan on the fly if necessary.
Yes the hero always beats the odds, however, unlike the dear Captain who's written as "never loosing Golden Boy"
Or wolverine who's written to be the "best at what he does"
Or DD who's portrayed as being "the perfect ninja"
Spiderman is shown to be a much more fallable character. The geek who get's beaten by the common street thug, but manages to pull the win against a God like being. This is a unique attribute to his character, and a quality that none of the Trio possess. Unlike any of the Trio, he is almost always portrayed as the consistant underdog, however, be it by miracle or tactical ability, he somehow always manages to pull a surprising miracle win in the end.
__________________ If knowledge is power..how come we have so many idiots in charge?!!
Last edited by whobdamandog on Aug 8th, 2005 at 04:12 AM
I never claimed either weapon magically (literally or figuratively) returns to the wielder's hand, but the weapons do bounce, the shield specifically, and Cap has retrieved his weapon by using this tactic before.
Bear in mind that the shield, when thrown by Cap, or the billy club thrown by Daredevil is vastly more accurate than any thug wielding any sort of handgun - they always miss everything by a lot of distance.
Also of note is that the billy club and the shield especially are much more versatile in attack than you give credit to. The shield is constantly reflected off of walls and I've seen DD manage to bounce his weapon as well. What's to stop Spider-Man from being alerted to the shield's aerial travel, and dodging, only to be struck at again?
Carnage's symbiotic-based weaponry always comes from one general direction and Spider-Man has never stood in one place, twitching this way and that, to dodge; he always removes himself from range, period, which shows he can dodge the first strike, but not necessarily a rapid succession of all. If Carnage struck rapidly in four different directions, Spider-Man would be hit without dodging backwards and, again, out of range.
Take him out? No. Knock him over and/or daze him? Yes.
You have a problem with your numbers. Allegedly, Spider-Man's web-lines only go a maximum distance of 60 feet before requiring being shot in an arc to gain distance, and Spider-Man's aim isn't that good to do something of that nature on the fly, not for something not as big as a building.
Also, what's to keep anybody from simply not taking cover when he does this?
It's called surprise. Spider-Man isn't exactly infallible in that he cannot be caught off-guard, and if the shield is being swung at him by his own power, it may be sufficiently swift enough to strike him. Even so, dodging it still costs Spidey time and keeps him from getting off an attack.
With a single web-line? No. Wolverine's fast enough to respond to a line snagging his arm or leg or whatever and slash it to ribbons.
True, but do you think Cap and Daredevil are going to stand there and wait for Spider-Man to swing Wolverine about? Say all you want about how fast he is, but if he jumped or whatever, he'd lose that leverage he needs to chuck Wolverine anywhere. Spider-Man taking the time to dodge is time enough for Logan to cut himself free.
Me either. As I said, it's the only number I've ever seen, but it does make enough sense.
Bullets are dodged at sufficient distance. The exact distance is unknown, but it's not as if he's fast enough to dodge a point blank shot. If any of them are close enough, he can be struck just fine.
True, just usually not immediately.
Still sounds like a Deus Ex Machine plot-based trait to me.
-wow...woopdi-****ing-do...you were able to take someone elses well thought out definition of a plot device and paste it onto a post.....nice job....however...this definition of plot device...DOES NOT NEGATE the fact that these facts and events that I have been using for my side of the debate are infact part of these characters lives..and their life experiences....all you've done is bring about the definition of what a plot device is.... what have you proved or disproved with this however? nothing..that's what..thank you for wasting my time...
-boy it's a good thing you either didn't read or choose to respond to the rest of that part of the post....you know the part that brings to attention and addresses the fact that when encountering even peak humans who have a level of fighting ability>>>>>>>> over spiderman...that he has trouble taking them down. anywho...... to answer your questions about:
-speed? yes, however spiderman only has a slight advantage in the area of overall speed....going by comics...OR going by stats his speed is not overwhelmingly impressive to advanced fighters of peak human capacity/ability...and his advantage will only help him so long...against wolverine however this is an advantage he can only capitalize on for a pretty limited amount of time...while he'll fatigue...wolverine won't....the other two don't have to go all out and expend their energy if they use wolverine to soak up most of the brunt of spiderman's assault...even so....captain america's body has been specialy designed to be completely resistant to fatigue...this is how he could fight for days on end without nureshment or sleep and still be fighting at his peak human capacity...spiderman's body is more resistant to fatique than any human's but wolverine, nor cap are ANY human...and his speed will only be of his advantage for a limited time.
precognition? again..he has a slight advantage....his precog only allows him to catch things a split second before wolverine....and even less before daredevil.....however you seem to think his spidersense can overcompinsate for everything...he's admitted on several occasions the spider sense allows him to know that something dangerous is coming and what general direction it's coming from so that his body reacts accordingly....however..it's far from as impressive as you want it to be...what happens when someone's swinging arms at spiderman in rapid succession? exactly what happened in the graveyard fight..his spider sense could feel logan coming..and coming....and coming....spiderman could only dodge for so long before he ran out of options.....against two other guys..and he gets splattered...
reflexes? this is his major advantage....it makes hitting him with projectiles hard...and that's what cap's main offense will most likely consist of....but once again he's facing off against 3 opponents....spiderman fatigues he slows down...so do his reflexes..then he gets nailed...
strength? obviously...hence the whole superhuman vs. peak human argument.....however his strength is a near non-factor against logan....against caps sheild..and against dd's radar sense....he can only make use of his strength IF he hits someone...daredevil's the least durable person here and he's taken a severly pissed off spiderman's hits and just bounced back up from it....if this were a who can punch more brick walls into debris contest spidey would win...but it's not...and these guys are not brick walls...their reactions to a spiderman hit are not the same as any living human today..nor are they the same of a solid object like a brick wall...peak humans have taken shots from far stronger opponents than spiderman and are just fine...and it's not like this isn't something that doesn't happen all the time....they should be able to roll with spiderman's punches just fine...if spiderman makes too much an effort to put em down with his brute strength..it will deviate from his focus and he'll get nailed from behind....
agility? no not a serious advantage here...has I've stated before...his agility comes easier and LOOKS more impressive...however it's irrational to compare one mans agility to the agility of 3 guys like these... all 3 of these guys have comparitive agility that's capable of mimicing spiderman's....the only difference is spiderman's superior strength to do more exxadurated movements....and that his equilibrium makes his agility instinctive...however it's no serious advantage in this fight...for instance if he were to get grounded and caught inbetween all 3 of these guys his agility wouldn't be that much more impressive than the trios...
long range attacks? no not really...daredevil can use his long ranged weaponry just as precise and devistatingly as spiderman...where as spiderman has effectively webbed up dd's arm...dd has also in turn COMPLETELY immobilized spiderman with his billy club wire.....
-while I've answered yes to most of your questions, there is reason to continue...will I consede that spiderman has these advantages..you don't seem to understand that his advantages are slight if anything....I could make an entirely larger list that would ensure a yes answer from you as to what advantages the trio holds here over spiderman...but it would be no less subjetive...both bringing to attention the trio's advantages, while discarding what aspects spiderman may have at his disposal to negate said advantages..which is what you've just done here for spiderman.....I could very well ask you who has better teamwork? the trio or spiderman? who as better leadership? tactical ability? strategic thinking? fighting ability? etc etc etc etc...................see what I mean?
-these "superior abilities" do little else than give spiderman a better chance at lasting against the trio than any of the trio members would have if they were in his place.....they however do not assure him victory...has as been demonstrated multiple times...
-it's funny how you went on to say that early spiderman could and would take down the trio much easier than how he's been presented as of late..and when I brought up his dismal failures in h2h combat against inferior foes...you automatically go for the plot device definition in hopes of it being something even comparible to a decent reply....
-it's also funn how you try to attck my credability as if my credability had something to do with the facts that we have to work with here..... I've given the scenarios of the stories when asked by anyone who cares....the fact is the stories are not in question..the fights are....according to direct comparisons spiderman has a hard time dealing with each and every trio member on the team when face by just any one of them...daredevils the weak link of the team and even he's KOed spiderman's ass with no circumstances to help him other than spidey's own rage...which is exactly what I was stating some 100 pages ago...the idea of spiderman not having restraints opens him up to other weaknesses that can be exploited. spiderman's not used to fighting all out...he's more subject to making mistakes than the trio are (do to wolverine's involvement)...he will lose..whether he goes all out or not....
your hipocracy is amusing however...for one who seems so fit to deem me as giving misleading information who certainly did little to explain the "complete" story line of the marvel team up book, showing that wolverine in webbing pic over and over and over again without telling people HOW exactly he got there in the first place...funny how when I showed exactly what happened...the spiderman fans stopped posting that pic like it was the holy grail huh?......but what can I say? the truth hurts right?
and yet you just used it over again....you go on to say that spiderman has webbed up wolverine easily so he can do it again....your example is horribly riddled with LIES..or wishful thinking I'm not sure which it is for you....but in either case YOU ARE WRONG....that picture of wolverine webbed up does nothing but demonstrate how spiderman can web up a person who doesn't want to fight him...who's in the middle of a conversation..and who's just been blasted accross a rooftop by an omega level mutant TWICE..... it however does not show what would would happen if spiderman were to try that tactic against wolverine in a fighting situation...the two times spiderman's tried it in a fight or fighting scenario against logan..wolverine pulled away from it and slashed through it and stabbed spidey....or shredder through it and flipkicked spiderman's sorry ass out of the way.....your pic however DID bring to the table the fact that wolverine was able to successfuly get out of the webbing with ONE HAND in 3 panals when he chose to.....it works more against you than for you my diulted friend...
now you post the marvel knights pic and your assessment of that is no less wrong as well......you say spiderman's lunging at wolverine..when his bodies positioning clearly shows him to be hopping to the side... his momentum and figure are both heading towards the right side of where he was previously at....THEN you continue to say that he wasn't trying to web logan up....well if that were true he wouldn't have continued to spray webbing on logan while logan was up against the wall would he? if that were true..why is he CONTINUING to spray webbing AS LOGAN STABS HIS ASS? face it, despite his spidersense, reflexes and speed he got caught by surprise and logan nailed him.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
-DD as admittedly said he doesn't stand a chance against spiderman...YET he's been able to beat him on 2 occasions and hold his own on the rest....funny ain't it?......
-the only times cap has had a problem with red skull is when he's already fought half a german division, gets hit from behind...or skulls got a special weapon, suit, or other to take cap out with......in more occasions than not cap beats the hell out of red skull...we've already been over this and you continue to cling to the same arguments over and over because you have nothing left to give....in the same notion captain america OWNED scorpion in 3 or 4 panals....spiderman needed the help of two other heroes to take him down.....-
as far as spiderman making a fool of wolverine...maybe you should read mk spidey again...you're seriously mistaken...who was standing by the end of that fight throwing out insults..who collapsed and passed out in a puddle of his own blood....who was the winner?
you said I'm making up stories about wolverine's ability to get free from spiderman's webbing but you JUST gave two examples...one where spidey didn't even web wolverine up..the other where wolverine broke free from the webbing before it adhered.....too bad you can't follow along with your own argument....too bad you couldn't follow along with mine...I said succesfully...wolverine's escaped from spdierman webbing on 4 seperate occasions by himself....I made up nothing..you would know that but you don't read the comics in question so how could you?
I lack the ability to reason? what's reasonable about saying spiderman will be able to beat these guys 1on1 when he has trouble taking on any ONE of them at a given time...what's reasonable about saying spiderman will effectively web logan up when he hasn't been able to do that on average either...especially now that there are two other guys there to get him free? what's reasonable about saying stats matter most....but when a more comprehensive statistical chart comes out..and wolverine overshadows spiderman...it automatically doesn't count? or using real world logic, but only applying it to every character that's not spiderman? answer me that.
you call people fanboys for disagreeing with you and yet what's more the trait of a fanboy? believeing that chracter a can beat character b when he's done it several times? or think character b will somehow be vastly more powerful and impressive than he's ever been shown when pitted against character a for the purposes of this fight alone? cause that's what you're doing as we speak...
now in relation to your question about stronger characters in webbing vs. logan...........stronger characters have struggled to get out of it because stronger characters rely on brute force... for has strong as the webbing is the webbing has give to it...moving around in the web and hoping to break free from it when you have no leverage of any sort using brute strength alone only entangles one more into the webbing...HOWEVER...these three guys..anyone of these three guys..can effectively CUT through the webbing with ease....that's how they can get wolverine out IF he's caught up in the first place....you argue reason...but you couldn't figure this out on your own? strange.....
the thing that hinders spiderman from webbing up the trio member that's helping wolverine in that slim and given situation would be the 3rd person there that's keeping spiderman buisy...all of these characters are certainly capable of that..and spiderman would be a complete moron to take his attention away from even one of them because any one of them has the necassary tools to take him out should he get careless.......again..something already explained to you..yet you can't follow?
you ask how any of these characters can dodge webbing?.........well speed and agility....spiderman has to aim to use his webbing....jumping upwards puts him at risk from getting hit by a shield or wrapped up in billy cord because when airborne he's more at their mercy than he was while grounded...it's not a good battle plan....but if you want him to do it..have at it...
you try to argue that spidey wasn't at his best in the training session but neither was wolverine so what's your point? spiderman held back...wolverine held back.....but your point (whatever it was) certainly doesn't negate the facts of what the incident DID prove....the argument's not dead obviously as the example doesn't negate the facts presented..but nice delusion you got there anyways....
you question that what I said as happened happened? fine.......well that's cause you haven't read the books as I've pointed out on multiple occasion...you know why so many people resort to the pis cis argument when debating with me? it's because I always got the proof to back up my claims...too bad you don't...you don't believe me that's fine..too bad I already posted the pics for everyone to see..too bad what I said happened is exactly how it went down...to bad you're totally and utterly wrong....
NOW YOU PROVE WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG...you think that a billy club isn't an effective long ranged weapon or the shield for that matter? rediculous....you just proved my theory that you don't have enough knowledge of the characters being argued here to accurately argue one side or the other..........daredevil's HAS bounced his billy club off of several different opponents and caught it in his hand to wail on the fourth...he does this sort of thing all of the time...a guy who was good with a lasso caught spiderman in a rope..you think daredevil can't do that with his billy club?...captain america catches his shield back all the freakin time...otherwise his sheild slinging wouldn't be a very effective argument here..EVER....but this is something he does all the damned time..the fact that you question whether or not these are real feats is hilarious...again..just proving you don't have the knowledge to be debating here..that's like if me or merc didn't think spiderman could shoot his weblines more than once..it's ridiculous...and yes...daredevil at his best can kill spiderman with a billy club...not only does he have the option of getting spiderman in a strangling position...but he can also hit spiderman at the precise time of his heart beating, making it explode...hell he's already overwhelmed spiderman's spidey sense with a the damned club...faking it out with half the club than hitting him with the other half....bouncing it off a tree making spiderman lose focus of daredevil so that he could pummel him in the face........and yes caps sheild will work just fine too...he can effectively sling his sheild so that it cuts a robots head off..the sheilds end is very sharp and spiderman isn't immune to being sliced or stabbed obviously...if cap hits him he could very well behead him..or cut him in half.....AND NO..SPIDERMAN cannot dodge all that...spiderman's been shot by just ONE bullet going off....he's been put on the run by 20 regular thugs...acknowledging that if he didn't retreat he might be in big trouble...and JUST ONE PUMPKIN BOMB as proven to take him out on at least several occasions...your overestimations of the character are bewildering....this discussion is ridiculous..no matter how much proof is given to you you refuse to accept it..spiderman's not a freakin god...ONE..that's right ONE...regular human being with ninja ability completely stalemated his spidersense with his speed....spiderman only won the fight through help of one of your precious plot devices.....he regularly has a hard time against fisk..a guy who's of peak human strength..but with NO powers..and NO weapons.....put spiderman up against 3 kingpins and he'll be lucky to make it out of there..putting him up against these 3 is like puttin him into a suicide mission..... and you have the nerve to imply I'm a fanboy....
I make a claim, I plot a scenario..then I back my claim up with proof...plausible or logical WITHIN COMIC STANDARDS is a very loose set to be using....too bad comic logic doesn't support your argument like it does mine....meh...credibility..maybe when you get some you can tell me all about it...untill then....please..scilence yourself child....
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
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__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
yeah...add in two guys who are easily superior to daredevil and see ho he fairs out..............I'm sure he'd do fine.. ..........
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
It was a joke..I just thought is a bit silly for you to give the impression that the shield and billy club automatically come back to their wielders..
Whose to say I was specifically talking about thugs? I've seen the wallcrawler fired at by trained marksmen, using semi automatics, all at the same time..and he manages to allude every single one of their shots.
Other than being thrown at an opponent, you have yet to give any other examples of their versatilities when used as weapons for "long ranged attacks" However I would be delighted to hear of any other notable uses in which these weapons were used to perform any other significant "long ranged attacks" Specifically ones that didn't have to do with throwing.
Answer: Uhh..Spider sense..super speed. Again common sense must be applied. The shield and billy clubs are not bommerangs my friend. And neither Captain or DD are experts in physics, so I find it highly improbable that they will be able to consistantly predict just where each weapon would return to after being thrown. I believe your being a bit far fetched with this shield and billy club returning argument.
More speculation..which isn't substantiated by anything factual. You might want to also keep in mind..that Spiderman consistantly dodges carnages weapons..with out he use of his spider sense...due to the symbiotes ability to block it out. The fact that he is able to still dodge these weapons, definately is a testimony to his overall quickness and the speed of his reflexes.
That's if they're able to hit him. Don't forget the Spider sense and super speed. Judging strictly by these attributes and his ability to dodge much faster objects, its very unlikely the will land a hit. Either way, from a distance..I doubt either cap or DD could fling their weapons with enough force to do any significant damage.
60 feet is still more than enough room for him to work with in this battle, and more than enough room for him to evade any particular "long range" attack that is used against him.
The other part of your argumen is based on opinion only, seeing as how the webslinger has demonstrated multiple time the ability to snag moving goblin gliders, cars, planes, and other like moving vehicles on the fly. And again please explain how the Trio are any faster than these objects?
Also don't forget that he's snagged people who are probably much more agile and maneuverable than either Cap/Wolvie/DD. With very little effort(ie Puma, Green goblin, etc, etc)
Well let's see, I believe in an earlier post I added the stipulation that the battle would take place in the desert, to give the "Icon Trio" more of an advantage. There isn't to much to take cover under in the desert, however, if you can come up with any plausible examples of things, I'd be happy to accept them. Or perhaps we could move the setting of this battle to a city, where the Icon Trio would have much more scenery to cower from the assault of an "any means necessary" webslinger...your call..
Uhh..Spider Sense. How can you surprise someone who has a precognitive ability to sense when they are in danger. Answer: You can't, however, if you are fast enough, you could strike them before they had enough time to react to this sense. Normally we see this happen to SM in the comics, however, we're going by each character using their abilities to their fullest in this scenario, so based on this stipulation, it will be next to impossible for anyone slower than the wallcrawler to hit him without have at least equal speed and reaction time. Do Cap/DD/Wolvie have near equal speed and reaction time when compared to SM? I don't think so..but you are welcome to believe they do if wish to..
Not to be rude, but your argument is a based on fallacy that Wolverine has some degree of Superhuman speed..I'm sorry but he's doesn't. At least not according to Marvel. History has shown that he's not fast enough to respond to being snagged by a webline. He's been webbed with relative ease multiple times using a single line. Statistically he is stated to be peak human level in speed/strength/ and reaction time.
Well who's to say that SM won't have already webbed both Cap and DD up before snagging Wolverine..lol..
And why would you assume that he is going to jump after snagging any of the Trio members with a webline? All he has to do is just throw them..this is a simple process that would take less than several seconds.
And while where at it, wouldn't it be possible for Spiderman to snag up two people at a time? He does have more than one webline..correct? Is it possible for him to snag both Cap and Wolvie and fling them a couple 100 feet in the air at the same time?
Speculation..it depends on how webbed up he is, and if he has enough leverage to cut himself free..
Unlike the Trio, SM's actually dodged bullets at almost point blank range..but he can get shot rather easily if someone were to pull a gun up directly to his head, as could any of the combatants in this battle.
Yes but none of the combatants really think immediately, even Cap needs some degree of planning with the people that he's working with, to pull off a decent attack.
And it is, however, The spider has proven himself more consistant with this concept, as opposed to the people he's facing. And based on the stipulations of this scenario, which combatant would you be more likely to apply the Deus Ex Machine plot trait to?
__________________ If knowledge is power..how come we have so many idiots in charge?!!
Last edited by whobdamandog on Aug 8th, 2005 at 06:32 AM
He managed to cut himself free from that picture of him webbed up that keeps going around.
By carefully using the elasticity of the webbing he managed to gain enough leverage to cut his head out of the way of cutting his arms free . . . and by slowly gaining more leverage, and using the little he had to begin with, he managed to get free.
Jinzin as stated before, you give no logical basis to support your arguments. You randomly take particular incidents in a characters history, regardless of how obsurd they may be, and then attempt to pass them off as plausible. Take a look at Wanderer's posts, he's actually made some very good points, without resorting using silly examples and your patented "All history is relevant" arguments.
"Peak humans having a level of fighting ability>>>>>>>over spiderman"
Read what you just wrote above once again. Does that sound logical?
Fighting ability will only take you so far..The worlds greatest Martial artist, will not be able to take down the Worlds largest Elephant..common sense my man..learn it and use it..
For the sake of others not having to read all of your endless drivel, and not flooding the board, I'm only going to repost your answers to my questions.
Good that's all I need to know so you acknowledge that Spiderman is faster...we're making progress.
Do you know what precognition is? Here let me give you a definition..
Knowledge of something in advance of its occurrence
it's a psychic sense, none of the Trio have this ability or anything comparable to it..lol..you really are a fanboy if you believe that they do.
Exactly..this has been my point and many others points all along. Now remember, he's going to be fighting at his best in this scenario and hitting him with projectiles, or with anything for that matter will become infinitely more difficult.
All he needs is one hit to take down both Cap/DD, which he is more than capable of accomplishing.
Much more..he contorts his body beyond the limits of human ability to dodge bullets and projectiles..Cap/DD/Wolvie although agile in their own right, are not able to do this.
Refer to previous post with Wanderer on this one. I'm not going to resummarize this point again.
Slight..LMFAO..you really are a fanboy..
Most of those questions are subject to interpretation. There's no set scale to measure leadership ability, strategic thinking, etc, etc..you follow?
Lasting as well as possibly pulling a win.
This is a hypothetical battle, which has never occured in comic book continuity, therefore victory isn't assured for any of the combatants.
And he has shown to beat much more superior foes..again do you remember what you were taught..skim back through the last couple pages..until you understand what a plot device is...lol
The same could be said of the Trio..Will Wolverine and DD be listening to Cap's orders, will Cap be able to strategize as well..it goes both ways my friend..
But it happened right?!!
Was it a training session or not? Was Wolverine shown to be easily webbed? Could he have been further webbed if Spiderman had taken the fight more seriousl? Tough questions....
__________________ If knowledge is power..how come we have so many idiots in charge?!!
I didn't. I clearly stated everytime that they need to bounce their respective weapons off of a surface in order to get it back to them. Although I'll attempt to clarify and admit that they can't stand in one place, toss their weapon, and have it come straight back to them.
True. I made an assumption and made a mistake because of it.
Versatile in attack, not in use. The shield, for instance, does not have to come in at a straight line, nor does it have to come in with Cap as the source. It can be easily tossed, bounced off of a wall, and sent into an entirely different direction. Can that not muck up Spidey's spider-sense? He's now gotten two warnings sent within second's worth of time, telling him two different directions.
Except that was a scenario not presented by the thread creator, nor was it agreed to by anyone else participating, but for the sake of debate, Cap and DD's long-range capability is, admittedly, diminished.
'Cowardly'? Wouldn't your Spider-strategy of staying 60 feet away from his opponents and just slinging webs all day long at them be just as cowardly?
If he dodges by leaping into the air (which he often does) his super-speed won't help him, as he's in the air. If the shield happens to reflect back into his selected path, he'll get smacked. It's not an infallible strategy by any means, but it's not implausible either.
Web-lines sent from extreme amounts of distance, which you're trying to suggest here with a 60 foot space between the two opponents, are slow enough for Logan to react accordingly. These aren't even as fast as bullets and all three of the trio have a history of dodging high-speed projectiles. My argument is based on fallacy? You assume Spider-Man's web-lines are fast enough to tag any of the trio from that great a distance.
Because if Cap and Daredevil, for example, are attacking him from either side, he'll have to jump in order to evade them. If he tries to take the moment necessary to toss someone with the web-line, he'll get hit. Cap and DD will be on him, because Spider-Man's web-lines can be dodged at great distance - again, he'll have to be closer.
Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Toss them into the air? No. At the distance you suggest, all he could do is tug them in his direction.
Leverage? He isn't using strength to break the line, but adamantium claws to cut them. Leverage isn't required so long as he has a limb free, which he will, if distanced like you suggest.
True, but Cap is also much faster than Spider-Man in this regard, being a tactical savant and all, wouldn't you agree?
In all honesty? Spider-Man. Yet PIS or any other plot-related device has no bearing on these threads. If it did, we would simply state that someone like Wolverine consistently displays the ability to amp his capabilities when faced with an opponent out of his league. Spidey's Deus Ex Machina abilities have no place here unless it's an actual power of his like it is Longshot's. Weren't you the one that tried refuting plot devices earlier?
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Your web-line at distance tactic is flawed. Spider-Man's web-lines aren't fast enough to tag any of the trio at distance, and if he did, he couldn't do anything to them but tug them forward, since he'd be pulling on a 60 foot-long line of cable. He also can't completely 'web-up' anyone at that distance, as his web-lines are just lines when that far away.
Last edited by Wanderer259 on Aug 8th, 2005 at 07:27 AM
see this is why debating with you is to a hopeless end....you choose what ffeats you will and won't accept....
you don't think wolverine can give spiderman a hard time when he's done it 100% of the times that they've gone at it 1 on 1...
you don't think cap can do it when he's done it TWICE already and utterly humiliated spiderman one of those times...
you don't think daredevil can do it when he's been able to do it on at least 6 seperate occasions...this really is past the point of ridiculous.....obviously we can't take ALL histroy into account but then again...I'm not saying spiderman is incapable of putting wolverine down cause an atomic bomb couldn't do it...or that his hits will have no effect since namor can't even knock him down....
what history I am using however is ALL directly comparible to the fight at hand....
once again..all you've done is respond to the PARTS of a post you wished to while completely avoiding the points I was making..I can't nearly blame you...you can't very well argue against fact so you might as well try to brush it all off as a plot device right?
well in that case..spiderman's super powers are ill-legit....therefor his entire life is a plot device...nothing he has ever done as a superhero counts....
you see? I can argue irrelivent points for my side as well..doesn't make me any less wrong....
you continue to discredit the trio where credit is due...all 3 of these guys dodge contort their bodies to dodge bullets...daredevil memics spiderman's style most of all...cap isn't much farther behind..and wolverine's literally tricked bystanders into believing he was spiderman....yeah....they obviously can't dodge bullets...they've never done anything like that...ever....
as far as superior senses...daredevils radar is so honed he can tell when a persons about to make a move before they do it...thus his preog is comparible....not as good...but definitely enough to keep pace....wolverine's heightened senses allow him to catch things a moment if that after spidey does..this has been freaking proven..there's nothing fanboy about staing something that's been proven....it's sad that when you can't find a way to negate my points you ignore them....THEN insult me.....not that I really expected say an actual argument from you...I mean you don't even have enough proper knowledge to give an accurate assessment since you don't know jack shit about half the guys here....but I guess I can't hold that against you right?
riiiiiight...
as far as fighting ability goes...he may be physically superior...and have a unique fighting style..HOWEVER going by your precious stats he's over 40% less the fighter than any of the trio members....don't want to go by stats? fine...lets go by feats....spiderman got punked out by daredevil in their first and second encounters....he was humiliated by cap in their second encounter...he's been on the recieving end of a wolverine fist in every one of their 1 on 1's.....face it he seriously lacks any decent amount of fighting ability.....it puts him at a serious disadvantage...hell even batman's superior skills can hang with wonder woman for a short while...and she's got superior physicality and the fighting skills to boot.....it's not uncommon for extremely well trained human fighters to take down physically superior foes of less than perfect fighting ability.....you act as if this is going to change for spiderman...pathetic.....
this being a hypothetical battle that's never taken place...would actually be a good point..if spiderman had not already fought all 3 of these guys 1 on 1....given the sufficient knowledge that he has a hard time dealing with any one of them alone.....adding in 2 others doesn't bode well for him at all thus reducing the outlook on his chances to win.....
NOW again with mk spidey.....it was a sparring session...(I'm guessing you've never had one...doesn't matterif it is sparring you keep your guard up....and mistakes happen so be prepared....)....and no wolverine wasn't easily webbed..he was easily hit BY webbing..then he just as easily got out of it....but he wasn't webbed up which seemse to be what you were implying....and obviously spiderman couldn't have further webbed up logan as he was still spraying webbing at logan WHILE he was stabbed but to no effect...sorry but your interpretation of the event is significantly differing from how it actually played out.....you still haven't been able to argue the points I made about that example..I know that you can't so you may as well admit it....it's obvious you don't have a clear grasp on the capabilities of the trio and are seriousl overestimating spiderman here.....as far as going all out..the same does not apply to the trio...wolverine's used to fighting on a level where he doesn't have to hold back....not only that but when he's truly going all out his attributes traits increase as well as his mental ones....spiderman's not used to fighting on this type of level he'll make more mistakes..the fact that you've reduced spiderman's strategy to a completely defensive one (i.e. jumping 100 feet back) clearly shows how he has absolutely no chance in a real fight with these three guys...he'll lose plain and simple..
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
KMC Community Forums
Aug 7th, 2005 05:57 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
and you have the nerve to imply I'm a fanboy....
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