Registered: Nov 2004
Location: The Unknown Regions
Obi-Wan's mistake was training Anakin in the first place. Remember he was against Anakin being trained at all because he knew how dangerous the boy was.
"The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"
Obi-Wan only trained Anakin after Qui-Gon told him to, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he agreed with it. He just loved Qui-Gon so much that he was willing to do whatever he told him. Maybe it was this reluctance to train Anakin that led to the bad training methods (holding back emotions, scolding, and everything else that people have said).
And by the way, it is ridiculous to me that one would get promoted to Master just by killing a Sith. Obi-Wan wasn't promoted to Master after Episode I when he killed Darth Maul. No, you get the rank of Master when the council feels you deserve it.
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: White Heaven in Hell
i wonder if the Sith are the same? Jango killed Jedi Master Trebor Coleman( who was on the council too) at Geonosis? Don't think Palpy b too happy if Jango turned up demanding to be a Sith master!!!!
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If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be lesser and greater persons than yourself.
"....Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete"-Vader ROTJ
When hearing that statment I don't think Obi-Wan made any mistakes I think Anakin just believes he did because he just needs someone to blame for what has happened to him in his life and who else is there to blame but his master Obi-Wan. I think Anakin feels that Obi-Wan never embrassed his skills and allowed him to develop farther and quicker then the other jedi's and for him not being strong enough to save his mother because Obi-Wan was holding him back and making him more machine than man
Obi-Wan made many mistakes. Like someone else said, he didn't train Anakin for Anakin's sake. Obi-Wan did it for Qui-Gon and to prove he knew as much as Yoda. (He was wrong)
Obi-Wan just expected Anakin to shut off all of his attachments and accept the principles of a Jedi, but he never explained anything well enough to him. They argue in AOTC about how the security is not a job for Jedi, but Obi-Wan does not explain to Anakin that being a Jedi is about helping others, and listening to those older and wiser than he is.
Obi-Wan also neglected to see how jealous Anakin probably is of him. Obi-Wan is a master first, on the council before him, and if Padme brings Obi-Wan to Anakin, he'll flip out. Obi-Wan always "holds him backl"
__________________ "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the force."
i really dont think obi made any mistakes in regards to causing the fall of anakin. i think it was very much circumstances and paplatine. i think that whoever was training anakin he would have fallen simply because palpatine was a master of deception. how else could he be among jedi at nearly all time and no one suspects him of anything especially the coucil.
Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus Obi-Wan made many mistakes. Like someone else said, he didn't train Anakin for Anakin's sake. Obi-Wan did it for Qui-Gon and to prove he knew as much as Yoda. (He was wrong)
Obi-Wan just expected Anakin to shut off all of his attachments and accept the principles of a Jedi, but he never explained anything well enough to him. They argue in AOTC about how the security is not a job for Jedi, but Obi-Wan does not explain to Anakin that being a Jedi is about helping others, and listening to those older and wiser than he is.
Obi-Wan also neglected to see how jealous Anakin probably is of him. Obi-Wan is a master first, on the council before him, and if Padme brings Obi-Wan to Anakin, he'll flip out. Obi-Wan always "holds him backl"
Well I dont think Obi-Wan made many mistakes.GL said its Anakins inabilty to control his temper that will lead to his undoing. If Anakin is jealous of Obi-Wan then that is Anakin's problem. If you want to attain mastery status one must check their attitude. That is why Anakin/Vader never made it past the secondary level either as a Jedi or a Sith. He was too impatient and headstrong to listen to advice.
Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Ol'Blighty in the north
I dont think Obi wan made any mistakes (apart from the mullet), he was forced into training anakin and the council should have stuck to their original decision!
Actually training anakin would be considered a privelaged advancement for Obi-wan. from Padwan learner to Padwan teacher.maybe too hastily done was such a step.
to be precise it was Yoda who had reservations on anakin's training, all the other members of the council thought that anakin's skills were impressive.
Anakin had it in him but did not know how to weild it. It was up to Obi to teach him. but instead of adopting Qui-Gon's perspective of the force, ("feel, don't think -- use your instincts."), obi took up the perspective of most Jedi - that was to meditate.
Later on in ANH, Ben finally concedes this by telling Luke to feel the force.
Anakin was thought to meditate on it and while doing so, he stared down the dark side - only with a high midi-chlorian count may you be curious to sample it. Meditating on it is completly different to using it. Since the Force is two sided, you meditate on both of them. Qui-gon used to live for it - living on the light side of the force and not losing himself into meditation - he would have tought anakin to live within the lightside.
Therfore mistakes such as:
1) Unloyalty - as in the sense of Not using Qui-Gon's teachings but using the General teachings preached by Yoda.
2) underestimating anakin - knowing that he had a high midi-chlorian count. anakin had to have a customised training programme. Jinn's instruction would have been ideal.
3) Arrogance - Obi was a master to anakin very shortly after he was a Padwan to Jinn. he presumed he could be a good teacher as Yoda.
should be taken into consideration.
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Deferrals get you nowhere - Just Do It.........Or Ineptitude will consume your life like a Cancer
Also may I add that Qui-gon was apprentice to Dooku, a Jedi who would later turn to the dark side. Dooku’s teachings may have triggered within Jinn that the force had to be explored widely. Dooku thought little of sides but was more after depth, seeking power within the dark side.
In the above post I say that only with a high midi-chlorian count may one be tempted to use it. Dooku did not have this and yet he joined the dark side.
What I meant was at the stage of being a padwan with a high midi-chlorian count, unless you get proper instruction, dark elements have an allowance to grow within. It then begins to snap after pressure builds up upon it. Anakin is prone to snapping and gets moody. Swings that eventually land him on the dark side for a very long time.
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Deferrals get you nowhere - Just Do It.........Or Ineptitude will consume your life like a Cancer
I think you guys are putting a lot of blame on Obi-Wan here.Like someone else said, Obi-Wan could have been no different to Mace Windu or Mundi or even Yoda in teaching skills. Obi-Wan blames himself, so should we? Poor guy has been beating himself up for over twenty years over it and I don't think it was his fault at all. Obi-Wan was a great student as we all know. Jinn even said he'd become more wise than he ever could be. Obi-Wan and especially Anakin, are victims of circumstance. That being The Clone Wars. Constantly being called up for battle not knowing whether they'll have enough time to meditate. Obi-Wan and the council became Knights and were seasoned Jedi before the CLone Wars took place. ANakin was thrown into the CLone War in the most critical of times in his Jedi life and there was nothing Obi-Wan could do he just had to try and cope juggling his own responsibilties with training Anakin.
The Emperor knew exactly what he was doing. He picked Anakin to be his apprentice because:
a) The Clone War he started would influence Anakin's mind.
b) The Clone War would greet Anakin with pain and violence.
c) The Clone War would split Anakin and Obi-Wan up on occassion, interrupting his Jedi training.
d) Anakin would continue to focus his Jedi powers on the combat aspect of being a Jedi, rather than finding the peace that Mace, Obi-Wan and the other Jedi could find.
Obi-Wan blames himself, even after all these years. He was like a father to Anakin, any loving parent would blame themselves. However, I don't think the majority of the blame lies with Obi-Wan, it actually lies with Sidious. Also it lies with Qui-Gonn. He was so concerned with Anakin being the chosen one that he was blind to his danger that Obi-Wan himself could see. Obi-Wan's reluctance and loyalty to Ginn means that absolves him of some of the blame. Anakin would later blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mothers death (leaving her unprotected) even though it was Qui-Gonns foolishness that caused it.
Then at least explain why. Anakin was also obviously fuelled with revenge because of what Dooku did to him. These were all combining factors that make Obi-Wan a victim of circumstance. A basic grasp of human psychology would show that.
I never said Obi-Wan was NEVER to blame, just that Sidious plot worked a charm on Anakin and had a lot to do with Obi-Wan's failure. I said we shouldn't blame Obi-Wan as much as we are. Man, I post all that crap the least you could do would be to READ it.
Put it this way, if The Clone War didn't happen - would Anakin have betrayed the Jedi? I think not. No Dooku, more training, more Jedi, no war, no brooding hatred, no frustration, no revenge, no Vader. The Clone War was a defining factor in Anakins turn. Sure he was slipping to the darkside before then, but Luke managed to turn himself back to the lightside after he almost slipped, it can be done.
I don't think Obi-wan made any mistakes, the real reson why he turned (as said by GL) is that he was never trained by Yoda, he was too old, so he didnt learn that much about patience and controling his feelings as he would have, and he was easy to manipulate.
And the Clone war was sidious' plan all along, to gain control of the senate and turn anakin, he knew that anakin would advance faster and not get the training he needed in a war.
Man, i honestly did read your post and i went to reply it taking me about 40 minutes to write a reply. It was a lenghty post......when i hit the Submit Rply button i got forwarded to the re-log in page.......
and when i hit the Back Button all components of the reply were not there anymore. But the Re-log in page !!!!
i'll soon post but this time i make sure its not only on KMC software
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Deferrals get you nowhere - Just Do It.........Or Ineptitude will consume your life like a Cancer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Superfly I think you guys are putting a lot of blame on Obi-Wan here.Like someone else said, Obi-Wan could have been no different to Mace Windu or Mundi or even Yoda in teaching skills. Obi-Wan blames himself, so should we? Poor guy has been beating himself up for over twenty years over it and I don't think it was his fault at all. Obi-Wan was a great student as we all know. Jinn even said he'd become more wise than he ever could be. Obi-Wan and especially Anakin, are victims of circumstance. That being The Clone Wars. Constantly being called up for battle not knowing whether they'll have enough time to meditate. Obi-Wan and the council became Knights and were seasoned Jedi before the CLone Wars took place. ANakin was thrown into the CLone War in the most critical of times in his Jedi life and there was nothing Obi-Wan could do he just had to try and cope juggling his own responsibilties with training Anakin.
The Emperor knew exactly what he was doing. He picked Anakin to be his apprentice because:
a) The Clone War he started would influence Anakin's mind.
b) The Clone War would greet Anakin with pain and violence.
c) The Clone War would split Anakin and Obi-Wan up on occassion, interrupting his Jedi training.
d) Anakin would continue to focus his Jedi powers on the combat aspect of being a Jedi, rather than finding the peace that Mace, Obi-Wan and the other Jedi could find.
Obi-Wan blames himself, even after all these years. He was like a father to Anakin, any loving parent would blame themselves. However, I don't think the majority of the blame lies with Obi-Wan, it actually lies with Sidious. Also it lies with Qui-Gonn. He was so concerned with Anakin being the chosen one that he was blind to his danger that Obi-Wan himself could see. Obi-Wan's reluctance and loyalty to Ginn means that absolves him of some of the blame. Anakin would later blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mothers death (leaving her unprotected) even though it was Qui-Gonns foolishness that caused it.
Exactly Superfly I think one cant continue to blame Obi-wan for Anakin's failures. I mean it was Anakin that made the choice to abandon anakin, it was Anakin that turned his back on his family and when he met up with Luke he wasnt concerned with compassion for Luke, the only thing he was concerned with was overthrowing the empereror and ruling the galaxy. I was reading Truce At Bakara and Anakin's force ghose appears to Leia begging Leia for her forgiveness saying he wants to clear her heart and mind of anger because anger is of the darkside. I am like Anakin its too late to start preaching fatherly advice, he lost that right when he became Darth Vader and supported the empire.
Yeah but we must also understand that the dark side of the force isn't something you can dip in and out of. Blaming Anakin is also a bit unfair. I'd say Anakin is the biggest victim in all of this next to Obi-Wan. Anakin was pushed into the dark side because of so many factors, most of those factors Darth Sidious was responsible for, a biggie being the Clone War and the "nurturring" Palpatine gave him.
Remember, the more Anakin was away from Obi-Wan, the more Palpatine could subtley warp his mind and interfere with his Jedi training, which he did perfectly.
And like I said I'm not taking EU as an explanation here. It's not what Lucas wrote, merely a fan fic. For all we know Leia forgave Anakin instantly. But that is not open for debate because EU is tricky ground, you can't take it as canon. Go by the movies only.
I understand what you are saying Red Superfly but to say Anakin is a victim of circumstance removes Anakin from his responsibilties. It was his choice to go to the darkside and abandon anakin skywalker. Also it was his choice to commit evil acts against the galaxy and fight his son and torture his daughter and just because he kill Sidious doesnt make him any less responsible for the evilness he committed. So to not blame Anakin would seem unfair to me but that is just my opinion and yours are good as well.
Jan 13th, 2005 12:22 AM
