Actually they could have had someone dressed as a Clonetrooper and had him to moves, and then do what the ydid with the Wookies in Episode III. Just copy him over and over again. The effects in AOTC are cartoonish, and it deserved the loss it recieved at the Oscars.
Wow, a AOTC worshipper. No matter if you like it or not, I in fact love watching the last 40 min of AOTC) I think its the best part of the movie. But it is INDEED definately cartoonish. If you can't see this, that's sad.
And I totally agree about using real people in suits, a suggestion made to Lucas from one of the other people working on it, which he of course turned down because he has overly loves CGI. Little does he know...
Last edited by hunchy on Apr 14th, 2005 at 05:53 PM
When the effects people say all digital it doesn't mean all cg necessarily it usually means that its all constructed from elements on the computer.
In the geonosis scenes the foreground is miniature for the ground shots. there are so many minitures in these films as well as matt paintings.
the funny thing is is when people say they shouldn't use too much cg,
well how else would you do it ? 'usually' they only use it if it cant be done any other way. How would you film a flying shot on geonosis or Kamino? How would you get thousands of clones and droids t run around. it would take a long time to wait for a stormly ocean to film. i don't know about you but there aren't many cities like corasant, or any that wold let you fly a camera around at 100 mph. You coudn't shot minitures at that speed, just like the podrace.
People that say that theres too much cg it almost make it sound like the film makers cheating. Theres just as much artisty in a real set or a miniture one or in cg modles, if not more so.
You could obviously do the clone troopers but i think they look brilliant. you can't really say there animated badly because there mostly motion captured.
Y'know its a fine line...because some of the practicals (Nute and his gang, Yoda...) look like crap, too.
Okay..actually...all the masks looks TERRIBLE in the prequels. Were they really that bad in the OT or did I grow up with the cheese so much that I can't tell how bad it is.
I guess its a damned if you use too much CGI, damned if you use too little...
Not true at all. Yes, I know that the Star Wars movies have many many minatures, blah blah blah, but the main percentage of the films are CG. I haven't seen any movies (besides those that are meant to for effect: Sky Captain/Sin City) that use as much CG nowadays as GL on the Star Wars prequels.
And not only is it the overuse of CG, its that a lot of it looks like total crap. I mean, if most of the movie was CG like it is, and looked good, I wouldn't really care. But in this case, the prequels have many bad fx.
As far as using to create worlds, and things like that its totally fine. But to use CG stuntdoubles, CG clonetroopers (you've got a problem if you think these guys look realistic or good in any way), fake sets, CG Yoda, CG R2, CG ships even (there's such a thing as models) CG 3PO at parts...I mean, the droid factory...just completely horrible...especially on the 3PO closeups, where he looks so cartoony you want to slap yourself....just complete shots CG, CG this, CG, that...etc, etc, etc. Have you not seen that most of the Star Wars movies are just the main actors in front of green screen. Episode 3, while they shot background plates, was ALL shot on soundstages with greenscreen....Now, yes you can build real sets, or at least parts of them. That's whats so sad, they can't even make a realistic background, which I've seen done far better in Pixar films. I'm sorry, but many things in Star Wars could have been done with costumes, real people, real sets, and other film trickeries...
There's such a thing as having people in suits, either copying and recreating them, or having at least the closeup shots and main clonetroopers be real, and the shots of large armies still be CG. I mean look at LOTR, they used CG in the right places. There are many sets, many real things, many costumes, and CG is used when they need it. GL is just overly fascinated with CG in general.
I really fail to see why everyone thinks CGI is such a horrible thing. It's not really different from using models if you think about it.
What are they supposed to do? Build an actual set for the droid factory, or the Jedi Temple? Put Obi-Wan and Anakin in the heart of actual volcano? It would be possible to some extent, but it would take a hell of alot more than 3 years to make a Star Wars film if they went in that direction.
I know the OT did this within 3 years each, but they weren't up to the magnitude of what's going on in these films location wise/battle wise and special effects wise for what is required to tell these newer stories. Yes there's alot of CGI. People can complain that it looks like crap, but using models nowadays would look even crappier than CGI in my opinion.
I disagree and agree to an extent... if you compare say the attack on the Death Star in ANH to what we've seen of the ROTS space battle so far, the ping-pong table with models on it doesn't even compare to ROTS.
But those models were built 30 years ago. And in terms of mechanical things (ie ships etc.) I think they do CG fine (though there is a sort of... feeling, you get with real models...)
It's when they use CG for organic things such as the clones, environments (Coruscant was fine, Geonosis was not), people or aliens. In these instances I think models, plate photography, and masks are far superior.... I have no problem with Nute's mask (except for the lip sync)
Sith Master, you missed my points on a lot of things. First off, if CGI is done well, fine, so be it as long as it looks good. Okay?
Secondly, there's a point where there is just way to much CG. I'm not focusing on the sets mostly, just how EVERY little thing is CG in Star Wars. The Jedi Temple I did not complain about for instance, but easily could have been done a model as well.
They actually used models too, like for the arena and do you think that looks bad? LOTR uses many models as well. I think models show more detail and look more realistic. CG in the prequels are cartoonish and seem slapped together. Yes, there are also good shots. But many many bad in my opinion. Jango Fett for instance being CG in the Kamino fight....just horrible....think Matrix, or any martial arts film...its called wires...how much cooler that scene would have been with a real actor....and also him CG in the droid factory...not only is it terrible to have a real guy CG standing there, but it looks horrible, horrible, horrible.
As for droid factory, its called a mix between sets and SPECIAL EFFECTS. Now I'm talking special effects, not CG. The machinery looks so cartoonish and fake I cringe every time I watch that scene. Another thing is that when such action scenes with jumping and moving around a lot, some things just look choppy and don't look right.
Now the fight with Obi Wan and Anakin....You are bringing up scenes I never brought up. I think that stuff looks very good. Ya know why? It's not CG. It's a mix between real volcanos, and fake ones they BUILT. That's why it looks so good...
I personally think the battle on the Death Star still looks good...yes some shots look corny, but the detail is great. It looks gritty and real, not cartoony and fake. The special edition of that scene, I didn't mind the changes there...The new shots were pretty good I thought.
I think in terms of ships, go for models. I don't mind creatures and things to be CG. Because they are alive, and some things are hard to create. Ships and sets I think should be models and real sets in my opinion...Ships CG I hate to use the word yet again, look cartoony, especially that opening space battle in ROTS. Models look more like real ships. Even Steven Spielberg, a director I admire for his movies and because he actually has the fx team spend a good time on the fx and actually makes them look good. He doesn't overuse CG. He uses it when needed. The fx in Minority Report I thought were very well done. He even said, as GL's best friend, that GL overused CGI way too much in the prequels. He said that actors also need real sets to react to, so that the perfomances are better. Greenscreen/bluscreen is good only to an extent, but to shoot a whole movie on it.....Its over doing it...(Unless of course, as I mentioned before it as a style...AKA Sky Captain/SIn City)
I like the Nute Gunray costume, and agree the lip syncing is the bad part, but kind of like it because its like watching a japanese dubbed film...kinda funny...
And the original Star Wars won best fx that year. ROTS is not revolutionary in anyway. I think that there are many other films this year with far better fx that should win.
Last edited by hunchy on Apr 14th, 2005 at 09:32 PM
hmm... I guess I'll have to see the ROTS space battle properly before I judge that. But I do agree that models look much more realistic
Jango and 3PO CG did look horrible, horrible, horrible. And there was really no need for it like you said.
as for the Death Star battle, I have to disagree about the detail... the trench was great, but the shots along the surface were too budget and lacking in detail... but then they had a much smaller bugdet back then.
I think I'll have to take back what I said about Coruscant.. there were some bad shots there. In particular the high angle shot of Dex's diner before Obi Wan enters look terrible.
Creatures being CG... I dunno... they do it okay sometimes... I think the arena monsters are good, but things like the Eopie's and the cowthings are terrible.
one example of good use of CG in AOTC is Poggle the Lesser. I think he was great... the best CG in the film.
Devil Dodo, I do like discussing things with you, because while we can disagree, you seem to do it an a none agressive way. First off, thanks for that. Your one of the only few...
You are right, there are some far away shots that look bad in the Death Star battle, but I think overall, I think the scene still looks mostly great even nowadays, with yes some bad low budget effects...but wow...I still love the old effects from the OT.
I noticed thought while looking up at IMDB, the Academy Awards, that I did not find an FX category for the year of Empire Strikes Back. This is odd. Anyone know anything about it?
I agree on that shot of Dex's Dinner. Not horrible, but just kinda not that good and cartoony and you can tell how small it is too. But the shot that I hate, hate, hate in AOTC is the one where Obi Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda walk along that hallway when Yoda is on the flying chair thing....The background is terrible! It looks worse than any background I've seen in a movie, including entire CGI films. It is majorly lacking in any detail and looks awkard too.
When I said creatures being CG, I meant I like it over say ships or sets being CG, because some are supposed to look slimey and other-wordly, while ships and sets are not meant to look like a cartoon, but need to look real AT THE LEAST.
I agree also that Eopies and cowthings are horrible, like those things Anakin rides on Naboo. They look horrible, and it looks awkard with Anakin riding and falling off it. What a lame moment anyways.
And I agree that Poggle the Lesser looks good also. I also think that Watoo is very good CG, as well as various shots throughout the film (the flying through Coruscant, or some of the end battle stuff is pretty good....some of it bad...)
I also noticed there was no VFX category for ESB, or ROTJ for that matter, but they were awarded 'Special Achievement Award's for both. Perhaps there was no competition during those years... ANH was up against only Close Encouters
I see your point about CG creatures over CG ships and I agree, though I do think they are better at doing ships than creatures... but I still wont be happy with CG until I can't tell the difference between a CG ship and a model, and the technology hasn't come far enough for that to happen yet.
And yeah, that Hall scene with Yoda, Obiwan and Mace is terrible...
I also agree with what you said about Spielberg, I think he has a much better grasp on special effects (visual and practical) then Lucas. Jurassic Park has great effects and that was made over 10 years ago...
Yeah, strange huh about the visual effects thing the years of ESB and ROTJ.
Glad someone out there though shares similar ideas and tastes. I mean, I am an independent filmmaker myself and I try to do things as creatively as possible. If I ever make it big time, I want to do things right, not the fast and easy way and have my film look aged even after a year. That's what CG does most...It ages.
Glad you do. I think that Lucas should win a lifetime achievement award as well, he has done a lot for the movie business and special effects as a whole, if only his special effects on these new films were even up to other film's standards.....
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Apr 14th, 2005 01:58 AM
