Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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Sorry, QGJ had many good qualities, but to say he is right and all the Jedi are wrong is to totally misread the films. GL makes it very clear that QGJ is a reckless man who takes dangerous decisions.
As mentioned, attachment is forbidden and remains forbidden. This is IN NO WAY A BAD THING. GL clearly has made this out to be a very bad thing indeed- there can be no question of Luke 'loosening' that rule.
'Pass on what you have learned' I always took to mean to a new generation of Jedi, not to his own bloodline, which at the end of ROTJ has no prospect of existing.
And if Leia wants to become a Jedi- then yes, she would have to let go of her feelings for Han. Too dangerous for a Jedi.
People keep saying this "The Jedi got it wrong, the rules about not marrying etc. are bad'. Wrong wrong wrong Those rules are vital!
"A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so. "
Gibberish! The Jedi are absolutely fine at it! It's only the incredibly rare ones that are the problem, and if Anakin hadn't been trained so late there would have been no problem there either!
I can't believe how utterly wrong that idea is. Not a single Jedi is taught to 'ignore' emotion. They are merely given the importance of no forming attachments. Plnety of them have emotions, and make sure they are the master of them not the other way around- not closer to being Vulcan, either. They can handle emotions just fine- they are trained to!
It's not as if GL made this complex. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this simple concept.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 1st, 2005 at 02:00 PM
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Massachusettes, United States
He does not make this clear. He makes it clear that the Jedi order believes this about him. This does NOT make it so. The fact that GL makes Qui-Gon Yoda's master is all the evidence anyone should need that he is a better (though less powerful) Jedi than all the rest. As we see so often in our real world, it is most often those who are most correct whom are dubbed as dangerous and reckless.
The EU would disagree entirely with this, though that is a side note at best. Insofar as the films are concerned, I think it is very difficult to see this as accurate given the obvious differences between the training shown in the PT and the OT. In OT training emotion is clearly not forbidden, whereas in PT it is. This is the most accurate thing Palpatine tells Anakin: the Jedi have become FAR too dogmatic.
They are trained only, and I stress ONLY, in Dogma. They are trained by a rulebook. They are taught to respond to each situation in a preplanned, forumlaic way. This leaves an incredible problem for any Jedi whom encounters a situation which has not been planned for in Jedi training. This is why Yoda tells Luke, "Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." In the PT the Jedi teach exactly that Jedi training is the sole source of all good behavior for a Jedi. To hear this in PT times would be unheard of!
...but thats the thing. the end of RotJ could not possibly go further in outlining the prospect of leah marrying han. they WILL marry, thats how it ends.
as far as luke, i agree, there is no prospect of him procreating other than the way i translate what yoda said. he said these two sentences as one whole statement: "the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned." that can only mean 1 of 2 things:
-have kids and train them
-train leah
im willing to accept that he might have meant the latter, but certainly he instructs luke to teach someone of his own bloodline, be it leah or otherwise.
Someone wanna get me up to speed on the debate? That's a helluva lot of reading...
As for the line "the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned", I'd say he simply meant to teach Leia...
Just reading snippets here and there... I don't think the idea is that Leia would have to give up Han if she wanted to become a Jedi. Isn't that the whole point in the OT? Discovering that disregarding love is not the answer... that in fact the answer lies in the complete opposite? After all, this is what turns Anakin back to the light side... His love for his son.
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Last edited by DeVi| D0do on Jun 27th, 2005 at 02:50 PM
funny, but such irrelevancy will be taken as truth from others (see above post).
what happens in EU is inconsequential to the saga. its strongly implied by yoda and luke that leia will become a jedi---cannon. it is also strongly implied that han and leia will remain together, thus them kissing once han discovers that leia is not only faithful to him, but is also an incestuous pervert.
and i agree with DeVi| D0do as well.
to think that the inevitable coarse of the story is that leia dumps han and
both skywalkers die with no offspring is ludicrous imho.
anakin fell because his attachment was of an unhealthy nature. he was not able to let go and accept whatever would come to pass. he tried to control the fate of those around him in order to preserve them, while destroying what they live for. that was his own mistake, not a product of love...but greed.
i wouldn't say love is forbidden. it's how the characters love. obi-wan loved anakin...but that didn't stop him from slicing up the lil' prick. obi-wan is able to accept that he must defeat him, love be damned. but there still is love there. the jedi just have to learn to let go when the time comes. better to have loved and lost...and all that crap.
Jun 1st, 2005 01:57 PM
John 3:16 ^Thanks Ast Rofan^
