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Originally posted by mysterio69
i wouldn't say love is forbidden. it's how the characters love. obi-wan loved anakin...but that didn't stop him from slicing up the lil' prick. obi-wan is able to accept that he must defeat him, love be damned. but there still is love there. the jedi just have to learn to let go when the time comes. better to have loved and lost...and all that crap.

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Originally posted by PVS
he was not able to let go and accept whatever would come to pass. he tried to control the fate of those around him in order to preserve them, while destroying what they live for. that was his own mistake, not a product of love...but greed.

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Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Yes but don't you think it was Obi-Wan's love for Anakin that stopped Obi-Wan from finishing him off? I don't think he could bear watching his 'brother' burn to death.

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Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, QGJ had many good qualities, but to say he is right and all the Jedi are wrong is to totally misread the films. GL makes it very clear that QGJ is a reckless man who takes dangerous decisions.

As mentioned, attachment is forbidden and remains forbidden. This is IN NO WAY A BAD THING. GL clearly has made this out to be a very bad thing indeed- there can be no question of Luke 'loosening' that rule.

'Pass on what you have learned' I always took to mean to a new generation of Jedi, not to his own bloodline, which at the end of ROTJ has no prospect of existing.

And if Leia wants to become a Jedi- then yes, she would have to let go of her feelings for Han. Too dangerous for a Jedi.

People keep saying this "The Jedi got it wrong, the rules about not marrying etc. are bad'. Wrong wrong wrong Those rules are vital!


"A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so. "

Gibberish! The Jedi are absolutely fine at it! It's only the incredibly rare ones that are the problem, and if Anakin hadn't been trained so late there would have been no problem there either!

I can't believe how utterly wrong that idea is. Not a single Jedi is taught to 'ignore' emotion. They are merely given the importance of no forming attachments. Plnety of them have emotions, and make sure they are the master of them not the other way around- not closer to being Vulcan, either. They can handle emotions just fine- they are trained to!

It's not as if GL made this complex. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this simple concept.

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Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
The book states that there were two reasons, one is that Obi-Wan sees Palpatines shuttle approaching and the other is that he decided to leave Anakins fate to the will of the force.

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Originally posted by Robin Darkside
wow...

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Originally posted by PVS
[rant]yeah 'wow' is right.

its amazing when someone puts thought into a debate, and can disagree without the use of the words "f*ck* and a**hole* and actually take the time to put clear thoughts down and share them with everyone else. its awe inspiring when someone puts all that energy into a thread they didnt create, in an effort to further contribute to discussions in this forum rather than spam the shit out of it for the sake of getting attention.

'wow' indeed

maybe you should take an example and do the same once the feeling of awe has subsided. [/rant]


oops too late....you're banned

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Originally posted by Lazerlike42
I put this in another thread, but I will try to remember what I said exactly....

Yoda was not right to not want him trained. Anakin was one of two things, depending on what you believe, and it doesn't matter which: a creation of Plagiues/Palpatine who would have been picked up and trained by Palpatine, or a random creation of the force who would have been lost forever on Tatooine and never learned how to use the force.

If he was a creation of the Sith and he was not trained, he would have been trained by Sidious from a young age until he was far more powerful than we ever see him in any of the films, would have accepted the Dark Side completely, and together with Sidious would have destroyed the Jedi Order and ruled the galaxy with no hope (ie.e, Luke) of ever being defeated.

If he was a random offshoot left on Tatooine, then Sidious, with his clone army and Dooku at his side, would have destroyed the Jedi and ruled the galaxy (contrary to what Obi-Wan tells Luke, it is the clone army that dooms the Jedi; Anakin's role in the purge is relatively very, very minor), with again no hope (i.e., Luke) of ever being defeated.

It is fallacious to say that Anakin should have been allowed to mature more so as to be able to handle loss; a coarse analysis of the situation would lead to the conclusion that the problem was the opposite, as Jedi are normally trained from MUCH younger ages than Anakin so as they avoid forming any attachment to begin with. In this view, the problem would be that Anakin was too old, and attachment only grows with time. Maturity has little to do with it as a 40 year old man has just as much difficulty accepting the death of a parent as does a 14 year old boy. The flaw is manifested in that Jedi are able to be turned to the dark side, such as Dooku.

A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so.

Qui-Gon was a caring man. This was passed on to Yoda and Obi-Wan between ROTS and ANH, and they follow this in training Luke. Luke is trained to understand his feelings and react appropriately, not to ignore them and act as though they do not exist. The Jedi Order has been compared to Christianity (as well as Buddhism however it is not applicable here) many times. A Christian would tell you that the first step toward evil is to treat it as thought it does not exist. Christians are trained about the temptations of evil from young ages. They are not taught in the manner of Barney the Dinosaur (i.e., the world is happy happy jolly and everyone likes you). With this background, they are able to confront and resist evil. Luke is able to resist because he has learned to, which is one of the bigger errors the Jedi made prior to the rise of Sidious. Before this, young Jedi seem not to have been taught of the dark side; it is known to exist but is not discussed and is taboo. This is a receipe for disaster.

Everyone can let go of the ones they love because in the New Jedi Order, they are prepared. There trainers prepare them, and they themselves mentally prepare themselves from the beginning of their training to let go if it should be necessary. In PT times, Jedi are never allowed to see that there is anything to let go of, thus leaving them very vulnerable. In this context, any Jedi would become intoxicated with the very first sign of love or attachment, imbibed so much with it that it would be virtually impossible to give it up when the time comes.

The first time a serious romantic relationship ends, a person is hit much, much worse than in succesive instances, because he or she has never experienced it before. Later occurences are less traumatic becuase the individual has gained an understanding of the emotional spectrum that is contextual to the situation. Luke is able to resist, as would other New Order Jedi, because in part he has spent his entire life saying goodbye and has learned to handle it. He lost Beru and Owen, all of his friends to the academy, Biggs ultimately to death, and likely many rebel friends. On top of all of this, he lost Obi-Wan, whom he had begun to take as a father, which he had never had, and eventually found his father only to lose him to a fate worse than death as he clung for life on the bottom of the Cloud City. He "was used to it," and by allowing Jedi to have attachment throughout life and guiding and training them in controlling and understanding (as opposed to ignoring) emotion, they too would gain the proper perspective, strength, and "spiritual" ground with which to do so.

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Originally posted by PVS
expanded universe....everthing not in the films basically.

luke+mara jade=EU

EU is 'accepted' by GL, but it in no way effects the films, as the prequels have proven. its just outside entertainment, but has no place for debate here.