ive sen the celestials bio, n franklin's too, both of emm have done more feats since that bio was updated, those bios are old, just like pheonix's bio was old which initially only gave her the power of all desire and all life YET UNBORN.
just a lil sumthin to enlighten u all the first conversation between the pheonix and jean, and thus the most authentic info, not to mention the first appearance of the seperate entity called pheonix force.
All that is...I am.
I was born with the first fire, and shall remain until the last celestial spark is extinguished.
Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life. High above the third orb, called the Earth, a construct tumbles through the dark, while another smaller vehicle plunges recklessly towards its homeworld, fleeing the wild energies of a solar flare surging invisibly outwards from the sun.
There are noble souls within, and doomed as well. Among them, the reason for my presence.
[The Phoenix approaches the shuttle]
....
The child's will far outstrips her strength. She knows this...and the beginnings of fear as well. Flesh withers under the savage onslaught. Yet her spirit soars--higher, more fiercely defiant, than ever.
...
Be not afraid. No harm is meant.
"Voice--like music in my mind--who, what, are you?!?"
The sum and substance of life and hope and dreams.
All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.
You cried out for aid. I heard. I came.
"This is crazy. I'M crazy."
No more than any finite being confronting the infinite. Your form, child, is so fragile. How can you possibly endure?
"I must!"
To save your friends. And, most especially--
"That image, cast from my soul. Oh, my love, I've never seen you look so beautiful. The essence of my hopes and dreams--all that almost was--will never be. My innermost secrets--yearnings--how could you possibly know--?!"
My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
"Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality. You are human. I am of creation.
[The Phoenix begins to take a female human shape.]
A shell, nothing more. And only for the present. Your own physicality cannot easily be restored. For its own protection, your mind refuses to acknowledge the full extent of your injuries. Your existence is far closer to transition than you realize.
"Not dying then, already dead. Hanging on--barely--by force of will alone... What do you want of me?"
You called, child of man. And I, mother of the stars, answered. It is for you to name your heart's desire.
"And I'll get my wish, just like that. Why do I suspect that's too good to be true?"
All things have their price.
"What's mine?"
Does that matter?
"Yes!"
I am glad. Take my hands, child, that we two may become one. Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself.
Be warned--the fire I offer can burn as well as warm. Destroy as well as heal. And it always consumes. The glory I offer is transcendent; likewise, the danger and the flame, once taken, can never be extinguished.
"The power--it's too much--beyond comprehension. Suppose I can't handle--I'm not worthy. How can I accept?!"
You know that answer already, else you would not have summoned me.
"I'm afraid."
With good reason.
Death is the certainty--the end to all burdens, all responsibilities, life the greatest of unknowns. Each day, every moment, contains risk. Safety--and perhaps peace--can be found only in the grave. I may be salvation--or damnation--or both. Which now is your heart's desire?
"To save my friends, I'd dance with the devil himself! And I want to live."
All things are possible, child. And you may yet dance with the devil without...and the far more terrible one within...
You silly boy. You have just made quite apparent your great misundrstanding and highlighted the fact that a lot of comic book writers work has hidden meaning and shouldnt be taken literally or on face value otherwise you get completely the wrong end of the stick, just like you have. What you thought was your great piece of evidence showing how phoenix is a seprate entity and not jean is actually a piece from the comics showing the opposite and highlighting the fact that jean and phoenix are one and the same:
"All that is...I am." and "Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children"
These are quotes from phoenix supporting the fact that she is the primal force of creation (as also stated by the watcher) whose essence runs through everything and who created the multiverse.
"My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories."
As shown again in previous years by New Xmen and further cemented more recently by Endsong, all appearances of the phoenix are manifestions created by Jean, they are just jeans phoenix essence. A shard of her very self which takes her form.
For further evidence of this you need only look at excalibur 64. The implication is that the “phoenix force” that wandered around the MU bonding with Madelyne and Rachel is really always the part carved from the spirit of Jean Grey.This seems also to be the interpretation of Greg Pak in Endsong 5.
In Excalibur 64.When the Phoenix awakens Rachel in space to bid her farewell,Rachel asks her to show herself,and she appears in the Jean Grey “Gold Woman” form: “Mother...You look like my mother...like Jean.Jean Grey”.
"The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."
Yet more quotes supporting my previous arguments that Phoenix is a vessel for the essence of God. Her very title Phoenix of the White CROWN and the fact that Jean calls herself TIPHERETH in the comics provide more evidence supporting my argument about TOAA connection. With both terms being the names of sephiroth (vessels for Gods essence, made to carry out his work in our plane of existence), both being found on the kabbalah mystic tree of life which jean calls herself " the heart and soul of" in Uncanny xmen 135 and with the journey between the crown(white hot room) and tiphereth(jean) being known in kaballah as the 'flight of the phoenix'
Thanos also says TIME & SPACE does NOT EXIST any more. Guess what, their outside of time and space. Phoenix was only outside of time.
Thanos also destroys LT which you've yet to prove PF is more powerful than.
Oh, and where is PF in that series again? LT, Eternity, Infinity, etc. showed up. Where was it's so called "Creator" the Phoenix Force. Not even one mentioning of PF.
One realities time and space didnt exist anymore. Not a multiverses. If that was the case as aforementioned AdamW would have died as well.
Phoenixes look down upon our plane of existence from the white hot room which is beyond creation.
You like going around in circles dont you? Ive already answered this point you keep dragging up over and over. Phoenix is the primal force of creation as stated by the watcher, as stated by eternity as shown in the comics with a connection to TOAA heavily suggested through the saturation of symbology, through parallels drawn by the writers between Phoenixes actions and deeds and the workings of Kabballah and through Phoenix calling herself Tiphereth and the comics stating she is of the Crown another kaballah term for a vessel of Gods essence.
The Phoenix is a force not a being to overcome like LT and so on, It exists outside of our plane of reality and manifests itself in creation only to perform acts of microsurgery from within. For example the healing of the M'kraan crystal, the purging of the Inferno and the healing and restructuring of the 616 reality. As ive said liken it to the force in Star wars. Its LT's job to watch over the multiverse and confront threats from within. The phoenix 'is creation' and heals and tends to that which would prevent the cycle of life within existence. The death and rebirth of creation.
No. Not one mentioning of phoenix but this says nothing about its power or status because beings such as eternity an galactus are shown and it is now common knowledge that phoenix gave birth to such entites. Xmen adventures 12 shows that phoenix allowed Galan to merge with the essence of the previous universe and emerge unharmed in the new one as Galactus. See my point? Says nothing of its power, if anything it suggests that its not the phoenixes role to get involved in threats from within the universes like that, but as shown in the comics tends to the universe itself and ensures that the cycle of creation is forever.
As ive said before its a shame the phoenix has been ignored for so long by non x-related titles but there is tide of change on the horizon with F4 recognising Phoenix as the force responsible for creation and everything within. Just wait and see.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Jun 17th, 2005 at 04:27 AM
GS, your logic is great. You've proved, and very well at that, that the Phoenix setup parallels the system of the Seraphim. That said, you still have no real good evidence to prove that the mysterious little voice that guides the avatars is in fact TOAA. Phoenix is powerful, yes. Exactly how powerful is impossible to tell.
Many of the points you've made to set up the avatars as Seraphim are based in assumptions, such as the names. The names establish that the system is set up to parallel the Seraphim, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PF avatars are as POWERFUL as true Seraphim would be. Someone set up a parallel between Warlock and Jesus on a different thread. Doesn't mean Warlock is the son of God.
It's always possible that whoever guides the Phoenix avatars could simply be a powerful entity, with similarities to, but not the power of, religious God. There's simply no way to tell.
On the opposite side, you could be right, the PF could be a section of TOAA, the avatars could be guided by TOAA itself, and Phoenix could have the power to single handedly blink the omniverse from existance.
Oh, the spark which began existance does not have to posess the power to actually create everything. I think it always says that the PF began life, doesn't say that it single handedly willed everything into existance. And Reed Richards is not necessarily a reliable source, neither is the Watcher.
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"Oh, the spark which began existance does not have to posess the power to actually create everything. I think it always says that the PF began life, doesn't say that it single handedly willed everything into existance."
Well being called the primal force of creation would certainly suggest its the case but if thats not enough for you what about jean refferring to the stars as her 'children', and what about her saying that 'all that is I am' and also that "Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me" would that not suggest to you that she is responsible for creation.
This along with the countless other times phoenixes is called the 'sum and substance of all that is' and has since its first appearance been accredited as the being responsible for creation makes it enough for me to believe that it certainly is the case.
1. Children can be more powerful than parents. Parents provide the roots for their children, which then develop on their own.
2. Being a part of everything doesn't mean you have control of everything. Read The Amber Spyglass by Phillip Pullman. The ghosts of people who die, upon leaving the world of the dead, dissolve and become one with nature, effectively making them a "part of everything". They still can't do crap to effect any of it though.
__________________ DarkCrawler is my hero... RESPECT LEONARD NIMOY!!!
I believe Franklin is more powerful than Celestial, his powers seems more impressive than their. Anyway he can't compete with PF, I think Thanos with HOTU would do to PF the same thing he did to LT. Thanos with HOTU, he coudl effect also everything what was outised form time and space, but he is being that could never understand the power he had.
Yet it states in Xternals 3 that the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal was a force that could only be contained by Phoenix so theres no doubting phoenixes power.
As for Jean being a part of everything (as is common knowledge with phoenix 'sum and substance off all that lives' and 'all that is i am') but not being able to necessarily affect it all, thats far from the case.
In Nxm 128 Jean tells Xavier that she’s feeling her perceptions expand,almost like she’s developing new senses,but everything is confused,melting together.(In Nxm 154, after the injection of Phoenix’s blood,Sublime will say that matter responds to his new senses).Xavier proposes a test:she has to lift with her telekinesis some silver cutlery.She jokes,saying that it really is telekinesis for beginners.Then he barely touches a fork,and she realizes that she can feel his pulse,through the fork,thanks to her telekinesis.And here we can understand how Phoenix can also be seen as the Ultimate Mutation,the final stage of Evolution:Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood.Telepathic Godhood means to be one with the universal soul,with all life: “The Phoenix is the sum and substance of all that lives”.Telekinetic Godhood means consciousness that extends itself over matter,permeates all matter;and ultimately sees through all the surface aspects of matter,energy,time,space and arrives to the the original vibration,the unified field, the universal wavefunction,the consciousness underlying all matter and energy,force and form: “The Phoenix is one with Creation”.In this way there is no difference between the “universal force” and the “ultimate mutation”:they really are the same thing seen from a different perspectives.So the “phoenix corps” may be seen as all those who reach this treshold,and the phoenix consciousness is the collective consciousness of the avatars that reachs out to them.When in Nxm 154 the world fades around Jean and is substituted by the “afterlife” this can also be interpreted as simply a shift in consciousness: seeing the whole crystal and not just a single facet of reality.
Through her position as Phoenix of the white crown jean has reached both her telepathic and telekinetic godhood wich gives her power and influence over all life, space and time down to a molecular level. Its shown in the comics. Try reading New Xmen. Seriously
if the pheonix force is the force of creation. if that is solid true. then the question arises. does pheonix have the power to destroy all the characters in MU as she has the power to create.
(Theyre all easily downloadable) and do some research into the basic principles of kaballah then it all stands out to you as plain as day. Im not really delving far into anything to come up with the argument i have. It really is quite obvious to anyone who has even basic knowledge of the principles.
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Jun 16th, 2005 08:06 PM
